# Bush, worst president in history according the Rolling Stone **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511 "2006-04-27T21:12:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/81 "2006-04-30T17:33:27Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Why not? Either example is a personal judgment about the performance of another. So why not make an analogy? Do you approve of Bush’s performance? Better not say, it’s too soon to tell. Do you disapprove? Better not say, it’s too soon to tell. Personal judgments are fine. We all make ‘em. But it’s too soon to say there is anything approaching a conclusive take on W’s presidency. Presidential administrations’ places in history are complex. Lots of moving parts, lots of complicated variables, lots of policy decisions with long tails on 'em. Sorry, that’s just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/82 "2006-04-30T17:42:42Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > At what point did it become possible to evaluate Hitler’s impact? When did it become reasonable to conclude that Hitler’s influence on world affairs was significantly negative? Was it during his political career, or decades afterward? For a realistic assessment of his impact? I’d guess sometime in the post-war years, possibly after the trails…certainly after the extent of things like the Holocaust, and the damage and lives lost could be fully assessed. Then, say, a decade or two to see how the events sparked by Hitler in the early 30’s impacted later history (things like the formation of the state of Israel and ITS impact, possibly the Cold War especially the events centering around Berlin, etc). I certainly don’t think any meaningful assessment of Hitler and his impact could have (or should have) been attempted in, say, 1939 (IIRC that would be about 5 years after he first came to power…could be off a year I’m at work and doing this from memory). > [@Terrifel](#): > > I think the bottom line is probably that the results of the Rolling Stone poll shouldn’t be considered overwhelmingly significant, but somewhat more significant than if they had polled a random group of people without any historical credentials. And by and large I agree…they ARE the experts after all. I just think that such things need to be presented not as fact (or skewed in such a way as to give more weight than the data available should give it) but as informed speculation. Thats how I saw it anyway. -XT ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/83 "2006-04-30T18:20:39Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Personal judgments are fine. We all make ‘em. But it’s too soon to say there is anything approaching a conclusive take on W’s presidency. Presidential administrations’ places in history are complex. Lots of moving parts, lots of complicated variables, lots of policy decisions with long tails on 'em. Sorry, that’s just the way it is. OK, that I can agree with. Historians making opinions, based on whatever they know, using whatever historical info they used. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/84 "2006-04-30T18:21:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I certainly don’t think any meaningful assessment of Hitler and his impact could have (or should have) been attempted in, say, 1939 (IIRC that would be about 5 years after he first came to power…could be off a year I’m at work and doing this from memory). IMHO a better analogy would be doing so in 1943, say. The ultimate conclusion hasn’t happened, but he’s already done so much damage that giving him a thumbs down is an easy choice. ---
**Author:** ![Kevlaur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/919ad9/32.png) [@Kevlaur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevlaur)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/85 "2006-04-30T18:56:40Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Prove it. _Including_ the explosion of the national debt, and what that means to the future. > > Troubling, to be sure. But, it is only 38.6% of GDP as compared > to 48.5% under Clinton > > Meaningless, given how nonsensical such numbers are. > Meaningless? How meaningless is your paycheck? > > No _more_ planes flying into buildings. > > Besides, why would they bother ? The terrorists are winning victory after victory. > For a terrorist 1 dead U.S. soldier is a victory; a tactical victory, however. > > But it’s OK to kidnap _other_ people and torture them to death, or rape their children in front of them ? > What are you smoking? > > They lowered the standards; and we aren’t finishing anything in Iraq, except our giant embassy and military bases. Not matter what I type here, you will discount it… why bother. Check the Iraq Index at Brookings… there is improvement. The economic indicators are everywhere you look, but if you want to be ‘caught dead’ check out [http://www.rpof.org/fastfacts/economy/1996\_2004.php](http://www.rpof.org/fastfacts/economy/1996_2004.php) Kevlaur ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/86 "2006-04-30T19:31:35Z")
> [@Kevlaur](#): > > Not matter what I type here, you will discount it… why bother. > Check the Iraq Index at Brookings… there is improvement. > The economic indicators are everywhere you look, but if > you want to be ‘caught dead’ check out [http://www.rpof.org/fastfacts/economy/1996\_2004.php](http://www.rpof.org/fastfacts/economy/1996_2004.php) > > Kevlaur I said it before: I find it hard to give credit to guys who do things on credit. Especially guys that don’t pay for their actions, Iraq will remain his biggest mistake followed by the ongoing inept response to Katrina. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/87 "2006-05-01T01:45:24Z")
“At what point did it become possible to evaluate Hitler’s impact?” Well thats a good example really - in his first years of rule do you think anyone would have realised he was going to end up where he did? And if we’d evaluated his impact at say just after Dunkirk what conclusions might we have drawn compared to say 5 years later? We were in a position to say he wasnt a very nice guy pretty early on and a threat to Europe but the entire scope of his impact and the resulting outcome wasnt really able to be evaluated until a fair way down the track. I doubt many people thought at that stage we’d still be talking about the holocaust 60 years later for instance. In his case it turned out to be far more negative than we might have expected. In Bush’s case is possible (although in my view unlikely) that what he’s done could end up being more successful than one might expect. It all depends on the longer term impact of some of the actions involved. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Mambo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@Mambo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mambo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/88 "2006-05-04T15:19:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > The US decended into Civil War under Lincoln. Pardon me? I believe it was President Buchanan who watched South Carolina and six other states secede from the Union, allowed the formation of the CSA, and did nothing to prevent the seizue of all but two or three federal arsenals and forts in the south. The first shots of the war came immediately after his innauguration. The nation had already split before Lincoln came to power. Criticize his conduct of the war all you want, but he inherited the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/89 "2006-05-07T16:02:30Z")
I think Bush himself sheds interesting light on his “accomplishments.” After five years in office, what was his very best accomplishment? [It was catching a big perch!](http://http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-05-07T100113Z_01_L07638085_RTRUKOC_0_UK-BUSH-FISH.xml&archived=False) > [@](#): > > “You know, I’ve experienced many great moments and it’s hard to name the best,” Bush told weekly Bild am Sonntag when asked about his high point since becoming president in January 2001. > > “I would say the best moment of all was when I caught a 7.5 pound (3.402 kilos) perch in my lake,” he told the newspaper in an interview published on Sunday. If the best thing you can say about your own presidency is that you caught a big perch in your own lake, then it’s no wonder that many of us regard him as the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/90 "2006-05-07T18:13:42Z")
> [@Kevlaur](#): > > no one has kidnapped me or my family and tried to SAW our heads off… > Kevlaur Say, was this happening a lot to you during the Clinton years? No wonder you are such a big Bush backer! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/91 "2006-05-07T18:39:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Fair enough. Answer honestly then. You are a professional historian. The civil war is going badly for the Union, the economy is doing poorly and there are riots in New York. Please tell me how good you’d be at evaluating Honest Abe’s presidency and judging where he would eventually rank on the scale of US presidents. Where would you have ranked him at the time? I must say, if Bush passes the Emancipation Proclamation\* in his last year of office, I might consider supporting him. \*Or, its modern equivalent. Perhaps legalising gay marriage, and telling the Southern states to go jump in an ocean? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/92 "2006-05-07T18:41:10Z")
Could we perhaps agree that, at this point, judging Bush’s legacy is difficult, if not impossible- but that juding his performance is possible? Of course, what you think of that performance is a whole 'nother story. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/93 "2006-05-09T01:35:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think Bush himself sheds interesting light on his “accomplishments.” After five years in office, what was his very best accomplishment? [It was catching a big perch!](http://http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-05-07T100113Z_01_L07638085_RTRUKOC_0_UK-BUSH-FISH.xml&archived=False) There’s one problem with this: The world record catch for a perch is [4.3 pounds](http://www.dnr.state.md.us/dnrnews/pressrelease2006/031606a.html). Now the interview was with a German paper and it had to be translated, so there’s still a possibility of a misunderstanding, but that doesn’t seem like something that would get messed up in that process. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/94 "2006-05-09T02:04:27Z")
3.5lb perch - got called kilos and voila. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/95 "2006-05-09T02:38:28Z")
[His Legacy and His Library Occupy Bush’s Thoughts](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/08/washington/08letter.html?ex=1147233600&en=27a30199f9128ffd&ei=5087%0A) > [@](#): > > he told Bob Schieffer of CBS News in an interview in January that he wanted to create a policy center focused on the spread of democracy and Alexis de Tocqueville’s vision of America as a nation made better by its “associations,” or community groups. > > “I would like to leave behind a legacy or a think tank, a place for people to talk about freedom and liberty, and the de Tocqueville model, what de Tocqueville saw in America,” Mr. Bush told Mr. Schieffer. “I would like for there to be a place where young scholars come and write and think and articulate and opine and teach.” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/96 "2006-05-09T02:41:25Z")
We talk about that stuff right here. You think we can get paid to do it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/97 "2006-05-09T02:47:00Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [His Legacy and His Library Occupy Bush’s Thoughts](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/08/washington/08letter.html?ex=1147233600&en=27a30199f9128ffd&ei=5087%0A) > [@](#): > > "I would like to leave behind a legacy or a think tank “…or maybe a fish tank; I haven’t decided yet.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/98 "2006-05-09T03:34:08Z")
During the last meet of the X-presidents they asked them what was their greatest achievement during the presidency. Carter said: “The camp David accord”. Reagan: “Negotiating with the USSR while at the same time finishing them off elsewhere, and Teflon.” Bush Senior: “New World Order and Pardons.” Clinton: “The resolution of the Kosovo crisis.” Today they asked G.W.Bush what it was so far. “One time I caught a fish this big!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/99 "2006-05-09T04:49:32Z")
> [@Happy Clam](#): > > I must say, if Bush passes the Emancipation Proclamation\* in his last year of office, I might consider supporting him. > > \*Or, its modern equivalent. Perhaps legalising gay marriage, and telling the Southern states to go jump in an ocean? How come these things always involve telling the Southern states to go jump in an ocean? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511/100 "2006-05-09T06:13:44Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > How come these things always involve telling the Southern states to go jump in an ocean? Because they’re the ones dragging the nation’s collective IQ down? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-worst-president-in-history-according-the-rolling-stone/354511.md?page=6)