# Bush, you're not at a frat party, you dick **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036 "2006-07-18T16:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/301 "2006-07-25T14:38:29Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] The State of the Union Address is a formal occassion as well. Don’t you think that hugging and hand shaking is going on as the representatives arrive for the occassion? The scene in question obviously occurred while the meeting was not in session. [/quote] The State of the Union is not an international meeting during which the intricacies of protocol and the meaning of interactions between foreign leaders are scrutinized. Shaking hands and hugging is commonly seen and expected at the State of the Union. However, coming up behind a female foreign dignitary and massaging her shoulders would still appear odd even in that setting. Not all events are equal, and the same expectations do not prevail across settings. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/302 "2006-07-25T14:43:52Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Back to the OP Don’t you guys realize that Merkel and Bush are friends. They are both on the record confirming that. Friends can give a shoulder squeeze to each other. There is nothing inappropriate about that. [/QUOTE] How then, do you explain her apparent revulsion to Bush’s touch? ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/303 "2006-07-25T14:48:04Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] …Now if Bush exposed his naked ass to the public while in office like Merkel did you guys might have something more significant to talk about. [/QUOTE] It was on vacation, and only half a naked ass 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/304 "2006-07-25T18:09:38Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] How then, do you explain her apparent revulsion to Bush’s touch? [/QUOTE] Because the last time he tried to cop a cheap feel, so she was on edge? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/305 "2006-07-25T18:33:41Z")
Wait, Flying Dutchman is serious? You’re not serious, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/306 "2006-07-25T18:59:31Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] The State of the Union is not an international meeting during which the intricacies of protocol and the meaning of interactions between foreign leaders are scrutinized. [/QUOTE] Yeah, it’s not as if anyone took the [Lieberman Kiss](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/washington/16lieberman.html?ex=1310702400&en=b423a86bccfd09af&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss) seriously. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/307 "2006-07-25T19:32:05Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Yeah, it’s not as if anyone took the [Lieberman Kiss](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/washington/16lieberman.html?ex=1310702400&en=b423a86bccfd09af&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss) seriously. 😃 [/QUOTE] I can see Lieberman being considered a foreign leader, of a sort. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/308 "2006-07-25T22:32:26Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > And yet, magically, no one insults a woman by calling her a cocksucker. That’s because, for a woman, it’s a _compliment_. Or should be, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/309 "2006-07-25T23:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=tschild] It was on vacation, and only half a naked ass 🙂 [/QUOTE] Half assed ? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/310 "2006-07-25T23:44:53Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] How then, do you explain her apparent revulsion to Bush’s touch? [/QUOTE] Obviously you’ve had very little experience with women. Merkel’s initial reaction was quite normal given that it was unexpected and she wasn’t aware of who was giving her the squeeze. Bush came up behind her. Once she was aware she gave a big smile. No revulsion there. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2006, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/311 "2006-07-25T23:46:41Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Wait, Flying Dutchman is serious? You’re not serious, are you? [/QUOTE] Dead serious ! I’m no Scylla. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/312 "2006-07-26T00:58:03Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Works _how??_ It says you have the time to respond to the trivial stuff, but you don’t have time to respond to substantive rebuttals. Don’t expect much respect in debate threads if that’s your approach. [/quote] Argument by false attribution. That’s not a good faith reproduction of what I said. And, you accuse me of being dishonest? > [@](#): > > It was really neither here or there to me. I thought it was intended as an insult, but didn’t really give a flip. I wouldn’t have brought it up if you hadn’t turned around and bemoaned the lack of civility. Yet another falsehood. I didn’t bemoan the lack of civility. I was thrice accused of doing nothing but casting insults, and merely pointed out that I had fewer insults than those making the accusation. > [@](#): > > And I offered you an invitation to debate that issue, because I don’t think you can come up with any substantive evidence to contradict my theory. “Theory” is a somewhat charitable descriptor. Your “theory” is that Bush doesn’t care anymore, made as simply a bald assertion. Since you would have to read his mind to know this I wonder where your superpowers are. I don’t need any substantive evidence to contradict your theory. A simple assertion isn’t a theory. I don’t have to prove it false. You have to prove it true. > [@](#): > > I guess you’d still prefer to ignore what the women _in this thread_ have said. Coward. Coward? What am I afraid of? What special knowledge is conferred by posessing a Vagina that I’m afraid of? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/313 "2006-07-26T01:04:09Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] …What special knowledge is conferred by posessing a Vagina that I’m afraid of? [/QUOTE] Nobody gives straight line like you. Nobody. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/314 "2006-07-26T01:19:58Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Obviously you’ve had very little experience with women. Merkel’s initial reaction was quite normal given that it was unexpected and she wasn’t aware of who was giving her the squeeze. Bush came up behind her. Once she was aware she gave a big smile. No revulsion there. [/QUOTE] Given that she looked at him as he approached, it’s hard to believe she did not know who he was. Only slightly less involved in a death struggle with reality and video tape is your suggestion that she gave a big smile. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/315 "2006-07-26T01:34:12Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Perhaps you actually view calling those who disagree with you (or, in this case, with Bush) “offenderati” as valid debate. [/quote- No. People who offend easily or seek reasons to take offense are “offenderati.” People who disagree with me are simply “wrong,” and people who disagree with Bush may be right or wrong depending on my stance. > [@](#): > > Granted, given the general tenor of the right’s political punditry, it’s easy for the limp-witted to become confused. What’s sad, though, is that there’s a strong streak of true intellectualism on the right; in fact, I’ve probably known as many right-wingers with a deep understanding and passionate interest in political science as left-wingers. I like those people a lot; even though I disagree with them, I can learn a lot from them. But someone like you? The righty equivalent of redfury or ElvisL1ves? Meh. Why bother with people like you? Yet here you are. Strange how you seem to ignore the fact that twice you have accused me of being good for nothing but lobbing insults when in fact you have made more insults than I have. > [@](#): > > So when you proposed an “explanation”, it wasn’t an honest attempt at argument (one that failed badly)? It was just trolling? Better report it then. Unless of course that wasn’t an “honest” accusation. > [@](#): > > Wow, that’s one bizarre little piece of logic there, innit? Honestly, can you come up with _any_ sort of justification for that little principle you’ve invented? Anything at all? Sure. It’s rhetoric. A tactic. > [@](#): > > Besides, what’s unreasonable about going with the evidence? Bush did something dimwitted. It was stupid. Under your new logical framework, it’s “unreasonable” to look at the evidence, and then draw a conclusion? It’s “unreasonable” to think that someone who does something moronic might actually be a moron? I’m afraid I simply can’t understand that idea at all. Well, if we want to be logical (I’m guessing you probably don’t and I’m wasting my time) we can say this. The video clip is a sample of Bush’s behavior. If we wish to analyze this we need to decide whether this behavior is representative. To do this we need a representative and random sample. This sample of behavior that we are analyzing is selected. If you are selecting samples than you invalidate your conclusions. Your sample needs to be blind. Let’s say for example that we have a bag of marbles. Some are white and some are black. The marble factor makes nine white marbles for each black marble. We don’t know this, but we would like to determine the distribution of white versus black marbles in the bag. Let’s say each bag contains 50 marbles. A person reaches into the bag, selects a black marble and shows it to us. Then he reaches in and selects another black marble and again shows it to us. Based on this, you would conclude that the bag is full of black marbles. I, on the other hand would say that 2 marbles is not a large sample and since the person is actively selecting the marbles we know nothing about the makeup of marbles in the bag other than there are two black ones. The analogy should be obvious. A black marble represents a faux pas. If you actively search out faux pas’ you will likely find them. By actively searching them out or selecting for them you are not taking a representative sample and therefore cannot generalize based on that sample. To logically make the assertion that Bush has a predilection for making faux pas’ beyond what is normal, you will need to select a sufficiently large sample of random interactions with foreign dignitaries and compare that sample against other Presidents/peers. Than you can make a statement concerning this supposed predilection, and have it taken seriously. That would be “logical.” What you are doing is just whacking off with a bunch of pals. A circle jerk. Here you sit in a thread titled “Bush, you’re not at a frat party, you dick” where the likes of Hentor call anybody who may oppose his opinion a “Cocksucker,” and you all nod sagely and compliment each other as you salivate over a piece of video showing a minor social gaffe from which you draw broad conclusions. I show up and point this out, and you blame me for the lack of substantive debate? > [@](#): > > All the time. I have yet to make one (faux pas) quite _that_ spectacularly dumb, though. I’ll keep you posted. Not only would you have to make it, you’d have to recognize you made it. Your claim that you never have suggests that your powers of self-analysis might be lacking. On the other hand, maybe you just don’t get out much. > [@](#): > > Funny that you’d be so self-righteous about that word. It’s usually used as an anti-gay slur, you know. Wanna leave the self-righteousness to those of us who were actually slurred? No. I’ve grown to find “Cocksucker” an ugly epithet, and feel free to say so, and don’t really think you have any special moral athority. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/316 "2006-07-26T01:35:23Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Nobody gives straight line like you. Nobody. [/QUOTE] It’s a gift. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/317 "2006-07-26T01:44:41Z")
“Lord, my boat is so small and Thy sea is so vast.” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/318 "2006-07-26T01:49:59Z")
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus] **Scylla** , I’ve enjoyed your posts in this thread. You did indeed capture the moral high ground. It’s a shame that so many understand the dynamics of dominance in a debate forum, yet so few understand that the real goal of any debate should be to change people’s minds. Dominance (such as directing inventive insults at your opponent) only assures that you will never change your opponents mind, and is therefore self defeating. It is a tactic which should never be employed by any serious debater. [/quote] I don’t think there’s much high-ground in this swamp, but thank you. > [@](#): > > I think there is something important about the actual topic at hand that you are missing, however: > I agree with you, it is stupid. I’m more here for the amusement than anything substantive, yet there is an important point here. You come close to it when you remarked: > That would be true if the woman in question were at a barbecue or watching a foosball tournament, but in this case Merkel was acting in an official capacity representing the country of Germany. It therefore wasn’t Merkel whose shoulders he was groping, it was, from a diplomatic perspective, the country of Germany. The question is, how do the Germans feel about it? If the links in this thread are any indication, they’re furious. And while Bush may have apologized to Merkel, he apparently did it off camera, in which case he still owes an apology to Germany. There may be something to what you say here. I would have to say though that the Germans getting massively offended over the symbolic implications of a minor faux pas in a friendly interpersonal interraction is kind of disproportionate. On the other hand, we **are** talking about Germans, so you might be right. > [@](#): > > Still, I agree that this incident is minutiae in the overall picture. I’m for raising its profile and broadcasting it widely, however, using it as a typical example of the number of small but significant faux pas our President commits every day. It see it as an important, if trivial, example. > > As a supporter of the Republican party, I expect that trivial examples are something you understand. The Republicans collect trivial examples of the behavior of their opponents. They have become the zen masters of collecting trivial examples. When Gore used poorly chosen words to describe how he’d helped the proliferation of the Internet, the Republicans were there. When Kerry attempted to explain why he changed positions on the Iraq war and again chose his words poorly, the Republicans were there again. When Clinton asked for an explanation of the context of the word “is” the Republicans collectors were crowing with delight. For years the country has been subjected to a constant litany of repetition of these statements over and over and over again. Shall I mention the video clips Limbaugh would show every single day on his show? They were the same video clips in every episode, but he played them repeatedly to drive the images into his subject’s brain. > > Those of us outside the folds of the Republican base have learned from those of you who are. We have learned a hard lesson from you not to let go of small incidents like this. We have lost too many elections because the Republicans were better collectors than we. Hmmm. In my experience what you say is untrue. I don’t think that there is a particular predilection or expertise among the Republicans in collecting faux pas, nor do I think there is one among Democrats. Typically, in my experience, if one is made it get’s used against you regardless of your party affiliation. > [@](#): > > If you truly want us to let this go, then I encourage you to once again seek the moral high ground. The next time you hear someone say “Al Gore invented the Internet”, or “Kerry was with it before he was against it” or any of the millions of chants about Bill Clinton, I challenge you to step forward and say “We shouldn’t be repeating this, because they were social gaffes, they were minor misstatements which were not exemplary of the actual position the candidate held.” I agree with you concerning the internet statement/misquote of Al Gore. I disagree with your Kerry example. I think Kerry’s Iraq stance is a major policy issue for the voters and the fact that it tended to change quite a bit and contradict itself was a valid criticism. Bill Clinton made few social gaffes or faux pas’. He’s quite gifted socially and has exemplary verbal skills. > [@](#): > > I challenge you to change the Republican tactics. Encourage your brethren on the right to campaign entirely on their issues and ideas, to refrain from insults or out-of-context sound and video bites. I’ll encourage those on my side of the aisle to use less insults and more ideas. Maybe between the two of us, and people like us, we can restore the national dialog and return this country to a great land of differing ideas. A noble idea. I’m not exactly the party chairman though. It’s a good sentiment though, so I promise to try harder. > [@](#): > > But in the meantime, since we need to get these twits out of congress and that dipstick out of the Whitehouse, I’ll be blasting this video clip across the net to every person I can, as well as any other bumbling, moronic gaffe I see President Bush committing. After all, we learned this from you guys. Maybe when McCain wins in two years things will be better. Personally I’d rather have Lieberman. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/319 "2006-07-26T02:25:04Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] “Lord, my boat is so small and Thy sea is so vast.” [/QUOTE] I like to keep in mind this: You can’t save everybody, so just make sure that you have a long stick to knock the stragglers back into the water. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/320 "2006-07-26T02:42:32Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Do you realize that this is exactly equivalent to claiming that saying “That’s so gay!” isn’t an insult? The only possible reasoning behind that is that being gay is a contemptible quality - so contemptible that the implication is an insult - but it’s kosher as long as no queers are around to hear it. [/quote] Actually, the etymology of “That’s so gay” as a hompophobic insult may be of questionable provenance. If you hang out with old people, really old people, they use “gay” differently “We were so happy and gay,” or even a Fred Flintstone “We’ll have a gay old time!” It seems to me that “that’s so gay” or “don’t be gay” kind of had it’s origin in that sense before it became a synonym for homosexuality. It was like “That’s silly,” or “don’t be silly.” I remember way back in the 70s talking about how Kiss was “so gay,” meaning silly or stupid. I knew what homosexuality was, and at that time there wasn’t much of a connection to the term or at least not an overwhelming one. Back in the fifties though, apparently “sissy” meant gay, and was the same as calling someone a “faggot.” Later it seemed the usage changed and nowadays you can call somebody a “sissy” without homophobic overtones. So maybe “that’s gay,” isn’t the best example. > [@](#): > > I don’t get people who do this. The idea behind the word is clear. It wouldn’t be an insult to call a man a “cocksucker” unless it was some sort of revolting quality for a man to be a cocksucker. All the half-baked attempts at explaining that away don’t change reality. Why is it worth it to cling to this word and invent excuses for it? If you don’t actually want to insult us faggots, then why do it and then try to cook up reasons why we shouldn’t feel insulted? I have to agree with you here. > [@](#): > > And yet, magically, no one insults a woman by calling her a cocksucker. You don’t bite the hand that feeds you. As Lenny Bruce says “You call a woman a “cocksucker.” That’s one nice lady.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036.md?page=17)