# Bush, you're not at a frat party, you dick **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036 "2006-07-18T16:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/61 "2006-07-18T19:15:27Z")
[QUOTE=Crotalus] **Hentor** , Have you found these pics or the video anywhere else? I’ve looked on news photo sites and can’t find a thing. [/QUOTE] I was kinda wondering the same thing. How reliable is “Crooks and liars” about this stuff? **mhendo** : Bush’s comments about the pig are just eye-rollingly stupid. He isn’t comfortable talking about serious subjects, so he has this juvenile tendancy to fall back on jokes. His handlers must be cringing… it’s one thing to do this in the US, but quite another when he’s amongst his peers. ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/62 "2006-07-18T19:17:00Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s not “a backrub”. It’s a non-sexual gesture of familiarity. Straight guys do it to other straight guys all the time. I really do think this is Bish, in his unorthodox way, of complimenting her for making it into the boys’ club. Now, if he had given her a little pat on the fanny, that might be a different story! [/QUOTE] If somebody did that to me, I’d deck them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/63 "2006-07-18T19:30:37Z")
[QUOTE=Boulter’s Canary] If somebody did that to me, I’d deck them. [/QUOTE] Which only proves that you’re unfamilair with American customs\*. It’s not something you’d do to someone you don’t feel you know quite well. I’ve seen it done hundreds of time and have never seen anyone take offense. \*which is not to say that Bush should be doing that in an international setting, either. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/64 "2006-07-18T19:31:35Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s not “a backrub”. It’s a non-sexual gesture of familiarity. Straight guys do it to other straight guys all the time. [/QUOTE] At the gym, maybe. I’ve never seen it in the workplace. I’d be offended if a co-worker did that to me. I don’t want to put you in the position of trying to defend Bush here when you and I are so clearly similar in our view of this. I believe you think Bush’s behavior is bizarre and really strange. I believe it’s is bizarre and really \*really really \* strange. I agree to disagree on the number of "really"s 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/65 "2006-07-18T19:37:52Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Which only proves that you’re unfamilair with American customs\*. It’s not something you’d do to someone you don’t feel you know quite well. I’ve seen it done hundreds of time and have never seen anyone take offense. \*which is not to say that Bush should be doing that in an international setting, either. [/QUOTE] The problem with this is that it assumes Merkel was familiar with American customs. I’m not saying she isn’t, but it seems rather presumptuous of Bush to assume she did. And if the argument is that she should know a little bit about American customs, then the same holds true for Bush; he should know it’s not a common gesture in Germany. Either way you slice it, it’s his faux pas, and a pretty serious one. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/66 "2006-07-18T19:38:37Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I was kinda wondering the same thing. How reliable is “Crooks and liars” about this stuff? [/quote] Quite reliable. As is Talking Points Memo. I can’t speak to the usual reliability of The Wichita Eagle, but [they](http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/07/bushs_unguarded.html) have a story with one of the same pics. The [L.A. Times](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-preen17jul17,1,2442410.story?coll=la-news-a_section) also had a story on the incident, with no pics. They said: > [@](#): > > It’s safe to say the former chancellor never got the treatment Merkel received from the president. > > Entering the meeting room, as relayed by a Russian television camera, Bush headed directly behind the chancellor, reached out and, placing both hands on the collar of her gold jacket, gave her a short massage just below the neck. > > She smiled. _“She smiled”_? I don’t know what the fuck they were looking at, but I wouldn’t describe her reaction by saying she smiled. More of your liberal media at work. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/67 "2006-07-18T19:39:38Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Which only proves that you’re unfamilair with American customs\*. [/QUOTE] I’m American, and I’d deck a colleague who did that to me. Especially, ya know, _in an important meeting_. It’s overly familiar, disrespectful, and generally cretinous. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/68 "2006-07-18T19:42:08Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] It was more embarrasing to hear how he addressed other world leaders, especiallly a few days ago at a joint press conference, where he kept referring to the Chancellor of Germany as “Angela.” [/QUOTE] He did the same thing with our prime minister at a press conference a few days ago, calling him “Steve”. Of course, what Bush didn’t know is that even Stephen Harper’s closest friends don’t call him Steve, it’s always Stephen. It’s one thing to show familiarity, it’s another to do so in a context where protocol is more important, and _with people you really don’t know all that well_. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/69 "2006-07-18T19:46:15Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Quite reliable. As is Talking Points Memo. I can’t speak to the usual reliability of The Wichita Eagle, but [they](http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/07/bushs_unguarded.html) have a story with one of the same pics. The [L.A. Times](http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-preen17jul17,1,2442410.story?coll=la-news-a_section) also had a story on the incident, with no pics. They said:_“She smiled”_? I don’t know what the fuck they were looking at, but I wouldn’t describe her reaction by saying she smiled. More of your liberal media at work. [/QUOTE] Thanks, **Hentor**. As to the gesture, I’ve never seen it done by a man to a woman, and I’ve never seen it done at work. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/70 "2006-07-18T19:47:26Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] The problem with this is that it assumes Merkel was familiar with American customs. I’m not saying she isn’t, but it seems rather presumptuous of Bush to assume she did. And if the argument is that she should know a little bit about American customs, then the same holds true for Bush; he should know it’s not a common gesture in Germany. Either way you slice it, it’s his faux pas, and a pretty serious one. [/QUOTE] No!! I don’t expect her to be familiar with American customs-- that’s why I provided the footnote. Bush should not have done this. My comment was speficially aimed at the poster from the UK who said he’d deck someone for doing it to him. Sorry if that was confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/71 "2006-07-18T19:47:50Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Which only proves that you’re unfamilair with American customs\*. It’s not something you’d do to someone you don’t feel you know quite well. I’ve seen it done hundreds of time and have never seen anyone take offense. \*which is not to say that Bush should be doing that in an international setting, either. [/QUOTE] To chalk this up to American customs is a big stretch and quite misleading. I am not at all accustomed to this kind of thing, and I’ve been an American all my life. Perhaps it is regional (my roots are in New England, where they sure don’t go around touching each other), but even growing up in the Midwest as I did, I wouldn’t be comfortable with a good friend coming up and doing this to me, let alone an acquaintance. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/72 "2006-07-18T19:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=Bippy the Beardless] Is that Italian female porn star politician still going? Perhapse we can get her to give GWB a lap dance at the next big summit. It would probably do everyone some good. [/QUOTE] You realize, of course, that he wouldn’t have the manners or sense to tip her a dollar afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/73 "2006-07-18T19:51:53Z")
I’m not trying to justify what Bush did, I’m only trying to offer an explanation. **Do you really think he was trying to cop a feel?** That’s pretty absurd. We know what he did was a huge mistake, but why did he do it? Calling it a “grope” implies it was meant as a sexual gesture. I don’t think it was, and I offer an alternative explanation that I think fits the facts better. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/74 "2006-07-18T19:54:21Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No!! I don’t expect her to be familiar with American customs-- that’s why I provided the footnote. Bush should not have done this. My comment was speficially aimed at the poster from the UK who said he’d deck someone for doing it to him. Sorry if that was confusing. [/QUOTE] Ah, apologies. I misunderstood your post. ---
**Author:** ![FisherQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/75 "2006-07-18T19:55:01Z")
I’m an American. And a woman. And I think there may be men who don’t get how often guys will come up and start touching your shoulders, or how invasive and creepy it is. If any of you are under the impression that this is an okay thing to do to any woman who you are not in a sexual relationship with, CUT IT OUT. Right now. That my president is acting in such a creepy way to a foreign head of state is astounding to me- and I already hated his guts. As much as I disliked him politically already, it never ocurred to me that he could be this awful personally. I always heard the guy had charisma. The German showed great courtesy in NOT smacking him hard. ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/76 "2006-07-18T20:35:51Z")
I’ve lived in Texas most of my life, and I would be seriously creeped out by anyone but my husband or my father doing what Bush did. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/77 "2006-07-18T20:36:02Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’m not trying to justify what Bush did, I’m only trying to offer an explanation. **Do you really think he was trying to cop a feel?** That’s pretty absurd. We know what he did was a huge mistake, but why did he do it? Calling it a “grope” implies it was meant as a sexual gesture. I don’t think it was, and I offer an alternative explanation that I think fits the facts better. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. I didn’t think it was meant as a sexual gesture. I do, however, think it was meant as a gesture of dominance. And I don’t think he would have done it if she’d been a man. Whatever the case. It was wildly inappropriate. [QUOTE=FisherQueen] That my president is acting in such a creepy way to a foreign head of state is astounding to me- and I already hated his guts. As much as I disliked him politically already, it never ocurred to me that he could be this awful personally. [/QUOTE] Well said. I think that’s why this bothers me even in the face of what I view as drastic policy mistakes he has made - while I disagree with him politically, I never thought he would also be personally discomfiting. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/78 "2006-07-18T20:39:27Z")
A few years out of college, I did something somewhat similar to a female co-worker (I’m male), although far less egregious and when only the two of us were in the room. She took it well though. Even so, over twenty years later, I still cringe with embarassment and incredulity that would even think of doing such a thing in the workplace. Bush probably still doesn’t know he did anythingn wrong. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/79 "2006-07-18T20:41:23Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] A few years out of college, I did something somewhat similar to a female co-worker (I’m male), although far less egregious and when only the two of us were in the room. She took it well though. Even so, over twenty years later, I still cringe with embarassment and incredulity that would even think of doing such a thing in the workplace. Bush probably still doesn’t know he did anything wrong. [/QUOTE] That _ **I** _ would even thing of doing such a thing, although now I cringe with embarassment and incredulity for Bush. Ain’t that ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/80 "2006-07-18T20:41:26Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Bush’s comments about the pig are just eye-rollingly stupid. He isn’t comfortable talking about serious subjects, so he has this juvenile tendancy to fall back on jokes. [/QUOTE] Of course Reagan was like that too: uncomfortable with serious discussion, steering everything to jokes and anecdotes at press conferences. But he sure pulled it off a lot better. Maybe it’s a matter of rehearsing. Reagan would have had a pig story — a _good_ pig story — primed and ready to fire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036.md?page=5)