# Bush, you're not at a frat party, you dick **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036 "2006-07-18T16:27:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/141 "2006-07-19T14:38:19Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I’m struck by the total lack of coverage by the mainstream US media. Has anyone seen this in your newspaper? [/QUOTE] Front page of today’s San Francisco Chronicle, complete with an above-the-fold, four-panel photo sequence of the massage and Merkel’s alarmed reaction. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/142 "2006-07-19T14:42:39Z")
[QUOTE=Biffy the Elephant Shrew] Front page of today’s San Francisco Chronicle, complete with an above-the-fold, four-panel photo sequence of the massage and Merkel’s alarmed reaction. [/QUOTE] A tad late but great to hear. I realize that the Israeli situation is hot news but hopefully the talking heads on TV might give it some air soon. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/143 "2006-07-19T14:43:41Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] True but sort of irrelevant that no disrespect was intended. In a formal setting I don’t thik it’s seemly to use informal terminology. [/QUOTE] As a clinical psychologist, it is appropriate to address me in a work setting as “Dr. Barbarian,” but I will almost always immediately or very shortly ask that people I’m working with call me Hentor. It is a fairly reliable indicator of personality when people immediately address me, in a clinical setting, as Hentor. I don’t typically object, but I do take the information into account in formulating an opinion. Like the laying of hands on people, I regard it as an attempt to exert some kind of control or demonstrate some kind of power. I think **Leviousaurus’** Godfather analogy is pretty good - I tend to think more along the lines of the kind of hands on thing a coach would do to a player while giving some advice or corrective feedback. In more social settings, it still serves a controlling purpose. The thing is, it tends to be done more by those who aren’t confident that they can control their environment through more commonly acceptable means, or for whom awareness of more superficial indicators of such things are more salient than more subtle ones (or both, as is often the case). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/144 "2006-07-19T14:46:59Z")
In American culture, there is a type of aggressive personality (usually male) who feigns closeness _and_ establishes dominance with fake displays of intimacy (usually with other men). It might not be a “Texas thing” and it might not be a “fraternity thing” or a “jock thing” but its something I associate with big, loud, backslappers who are often associated with Texas, fraternities, or jocks. Everything we’ve seen about Bush slots him in this category. What’s really interesting is that such gestures are simultaneously gestures of intimacy _and_ put downs. Bush’s jokes, his nicknaming, etc., serve a dual purpose of making him seem accessible while putting the target in his place (“down one,” in the language of dominance). I think that Bush has done this so much that it’s really a reflex for him. It’s not calculated. He probabaly wasn’t thinking about it at all when he grabbed Merkel’s shoulders ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/145 "2006-07-19T14:58:43Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] What’s really interesting is that such gestures are simultaneously gestures of intimacy _and_ put downs. Bush’s jokes, his nicknaming, etc., serve a dual purpose of making him seem accessible while putting the target in his place (“down one,” in the language of dominance). [/quote] This reminds me of the quote attributed to Jeb Bush, saying that W “truly enjoys getting people to knuckle under.” The guy is a petty tyrant who is also unfortunately the leader of a world superpower. ---
**Author:** ![Gene\_Frenkle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Gene\_Frenkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gene_Frenkle)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/146 "2006-07-19T15:14:43Z")
Even though he is a total moron, I would be a teeny bit impressed if I thought for a second that his comment about Syria and Hezbollah was something he thought up himself, as opposed to someone telling him that. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/147 "2006-07-19T15:43:24Z")
[QUOTE=FisherQueen] I’m an American. And a woman. And I think there may be men who don’t get how often guys will come up and start touching your shoulders, or how invasive and creepy it is. If any of you are under the impression that this is an okay thing to do to any woman who you are not in a sexual relationship with, CUT IT OUT. Right now. [/QUOTE] Perhaps Bush and Merkel _are_ involved in a sexual relationship. The faux pas, then, wasn’t the intimacy, but rather showing the intimacy in public. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/148 "2006-07-19T16:14:08Z")
Just so I understand, what Bush did to the Chancellor of Germany was wrong because a) She’s the leader of a country. b) She’s the leader of a less powerful country. c) She’s a female leader of a country. d) She’s not his wife. or e) You just don’t give people unsolicited shoulder rubs? ---
**Author:** ![FisherQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/149 "2006-07-19T16:19:12Z")
a, b, c, and e. and also (f), when at a formal occasion, one uses formal manners, not casual ones, and anyone who has diplomacy in his or her job description is responsible for knowing how to use formal manners. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/150 "2006-07-19T16:31:02Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Well, I have to say that despite his protestations that he is not excusing Bush - merely trying to explain him - the overall impression that **John Mace** gives is one of defense. [/QUOTE] What I’m defending against, if you read back thru this thread, is the charge of “groping”. One poster called the gesture a grope (maybe because the link in the OP called it that), and I think that’s an unfair characterization. Further, I’ve been trying to explain what I think the gesture actually was-- either a sign of chuminess or one of (non-sexual) dominance, or possibly a combination of the two. I have seen little or no evidence that it was a “grope”, in the sense of a sexual assault. If you think it was, then let’s see your reasoning. > [@DianaG](#): > > Do you? Really? I mean, given that his father was the friggin’ President of the United States of America, how did that happen, exactly? Well, maybe there’s more to it than he just doesn’t know the difference. Maybe he’s only comfortable in the BBQ setting and just reflexively reverts to the mindset he’d have in that setting. Or, maybe he thinks he’s being smart by putting everyone off their guard. There are a number of explanations that might work, but I can’t think of any that don’t make him look like a bumbling fool. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/151 "2006-07-19T17:09:22Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, maybe there’s more to it than he just doesn’t know the difference. Maybe he’s only comfortable in the BBQ setting and just reflexively reverts to the mindset he’d have in that setting. Or, maybe he thinks he’s being smart by putting everyone off their guard. There are a number of explanations that might work, but I can’t think of any that don’t make him look like a bumbling fool. [/QUOTE] I actually quite like the take on this incident printed in today’s [San Francisco Chronicle](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/19/DDGJ1K0RN91.DTL). > [@](#): > > Now we get it. This is the bottom line, the final truth, George W. Bush in a nutshell. Bush thinks he is That Guy. The one everybody just loves to have around, the one who sincerely thinks his goofy charm is so appealing and so innocuous and so licky-puppy friendly that he can get away with all sorts of casual infractions and weird gestures that no one else would care to attempt lest they appear, you know, dorky as a knob. > > \ > > And when it comes to women, well, it’s all taken one step further. Or rather, downward. It’s like an awkward scene from “The Office,” where the manager everyone secretly loathes but who himself believes he is the funniest and most likable and naturally gifted guy in the room walks up to one of his female employees and grabs a mango and cracks a grossly inappropriate joke about vaginas and laughs hard and slaps everyone on the back. > > He does not, of course, realize that no one else is laughing. I think the comparison to “The Office” nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/152 "2006-07-19T17:15:42Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] > [@Shayna](#): > > Good lord. I’ve worked for my boss for over 6 years. I feel I know him very well, as we also have a somewhat social relationship outside of the office, as well. If he ever laid his hands on me in that manner I would be so squicked out I don’t know what I’d do. And mind you, this is someone who on occasion I’ve given a quick hug to, to say thanks or to receive a congratulations for something (like my marriage, for instance). But if he tried to massage my shoulders? No. Just. . . no. Absolutely not done. Bush is not her boss. They don’t even work for the same “company”. [/QUOTE] That wasn’t my point. Of course I know he’s not her boss. Duh. But you did say this. . . [QUOTE=John Mace] I think you’re missing an important point. The gesture is only meaningful (in the sense I’m suggesting) when the people do know each other well. You’re right-- you don’t don’t do this to someone you are only casually acquainted with. Or, at a minimum, someone you just shared some personal time with-- for instance, if she and Bush had just had a private meeting immediately before this incident. It’s a sign of affection, afterall. But Bush and “Angela” supposedly get along very well and I’m sure Bush feels like he can treat her like a friend. [/QUOTE] Well my boss and I “do know each other well.” We aren’t “only casually acquainted.” We have shown each other “sign[s] of affection”, such as hugs, under certain circumstances. We do “get along very well” and in many instances he “feels he can treat [me] like a friend.” I’d _still_ be utterly squicked out if he ever touched me like that. In _any_ circumstance, _including_ at a barbeque (which I’ve been to quite a few of at his home). ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/153 "2006-07-19T17:48:46Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] I read a story by an English writer a bit ago where the gauche American asked the formal English knight if he could call the Englishman “Sir Tony.” “Of course,” was the reply, satisfying the American need to be on a first name basis, and the English need to be addressed with perfect politeness. [/QUOTE] I met a Knight once. He was in charge of the government department I used to work for. He had a “meet the new peasants” lunch to which I got invited. Sir Anthony Duff. I walk in, he shakes my hand and says, “Hello, I’m Tony.” ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/154 "2006-07-19T18:21:37Z")
Remember–there is a certain, unfortunately large segment of the population that considers ineptitude in formal situations to be a virtue. Table manners, courteous language, diplomacy, and other such social graces are the realm of the effete, the stuck-up snobs who got above their raisin’. Turn on your local country station, and there’s probably somebdoy singing about it right now. I’m pretty sure everybody in America has an uncle like this, who starts prancing and mincing when he sees you’ve garnished the mashed potatoes with some leftover herbs, and thinks cracking a loud fart in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner is the absolute pinnacle of comedy. Guess who those people voted for? (Never mind that GWB’s upbringing and position make him “just plain folks” about as much as they make him Martian. Bush is to the working class as the “wigger” is to African-Americans.) ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/155 "2006-07-19T18:28:31Z")
[QUOTE=psychonaut] Perhaps Bush and Merkel _are_ involved in a sexual relationship. The faux pas, then, wasn’t the intimacy, but rather showing the intimacy in public. [/QUOTE] Funny, I thought Bush was screwing Condi. If you read the right papers Laura’s on the verge of leaving him. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/156 "2006-07-19T18:45:04Z")
[QUOTE=DoctorJ] Remember–there is a certain, unfortunately large segment of the population that considers ineptitude in formal situations to be a virtue. Table manners, courteous language, diplomacy, and other such social graces are the realm of the effete, the stuck-up snobs who got above their raisin’. Turn on your local country station, and there’s probably somebdoy singing about it right now. [/quote] Yes. Those are known as “stupid people”. I hear what you’re saying - a lot of people take pride in not knowing which is the salad fork and which is the dinner fork. But the traditional argument is that high-falutin’ manners make people uncomfortable and serve to separate social classes, whereas good down-home friendliness is above worrying about such minutia. If anyone attempted to make that argument here, it would be awfully strained, as what Bush did here (and what he does all the time) makes everyone else uncomfortable. Deliberately behaving in ways that upset other people is not only contrary to etiquette, it’s contrary to traditional notions of American friendliness. That said, I don’t doubt that people will try. But it’s a misuse of that tradition to associate it with someone who goes around upsetting everyone around him. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/157 "2006-07-19T18:57:24Z")
Anyone know how this event played in Germany? Are their impressions fairly in step with what’s been expressed here or might they have been even more offended, what with the victim being one of their own? ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/158 "2006-07-19T20:06:01Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No!! I don’t expect her to be familiar with American customs-- that’s why I provided the footnote. Bush should not have done this. My comment was speficially aimed at the poster from the UK who said he’d deck someone for doing it to him. Sorry if that was confusing. [/QUOTE] I think that even if somebody I knew well did it to me I’d be embarrassed, annoyed and generally uncomfortable. If a stranger or even a workmate I don’t know well did it… Well, if truth be told, I probably wouldn’t actually thump them. But I would be very, VERY angry. On the other hand, we Brits do tend to be a lot less tactile than Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/159 "2006-07-19T20:21:47Z")
[QUOTE=Boulter’s Canary] I think that even if somebody I knew well did it to me I’d be embarrassed, annoyed and generally uncomfortable. If a stranger or even a workmate I don’t know well did it… Well, if truth be told, I probably wouldn’t actually thump them. But I would be very, VERY angry. On the other hand, we Brits do tend to be a lot less tactile than Americans. [/QUOTE] American here. Nope. Not normal to me. Someone I knew well giving me a spontaneous backrub? Sure, but not when we’re on camera at a big formal meeting. Someone I didn’t really know well? Absolutely bizarre. Don’t take his behavior as indicative of that of the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036/160 "2006-07-19T20:29:44Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] American here. Nope. Not normal to me. Someone I knew well giving me a spontaneous backrub? Sure, but not when we’re on camera at a big formal meeting. Someone I didn’t really know well? Absolutely bizarre. Don’t take his behavior as indicative of that of the rest of us. [/QUOTE] Except that it wasn’t a “backrub”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bush-youre-not-at-a-frat-party-you-dick/365036.md?page=9)