# Bushbots, since I can't ask for your brains, get yer asses in here... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669 "2005-01-14T05:24:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/281 "2005-01-18T23:45:02Z")
There’s an entirely inappropriate adjective in your last sentence, **SA**. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/282 "2005-01-18T23:48:03Z")
So getting rid of Saddam was all that was necessary for the war to be a success. Very convenient, since the CIA now says the Iraq war is making terrorism worse and increasing recruitment. The civilian leaders of our government are absolutely clueless as to what the middle east is really like. They want to change it, but they are dumb enough to get suckered by any criminal that tells them what they want to hear. Our own intelligence reports tell them that they are making things worse, but they ignore it. Surely a little more death and torture will make people see how great democracy is! Surely invading one of the most religious places for Muslims (which is EXACTLY what Bin Laden had been warning that we would do) will get them on our side! Worst of all, you have people like **SA** who are literally blind to the question of **how** we are going about the war. Believing a known criminal, conspiring with him to install him, rushing in with no imminent threat, sending in insufficient and unprepared troops who complain they can’t even prevent the looting of nuclear material and weapons from most of the suspected WMD sites, lack of measures to keep security, torture of innocents… they can’t see any of it. The fact that they can listen to lines like “the army we have…” with a straight face tells you all you need to know. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/283 "2005-01-18T23:48:26Z")
How many more of his goodbyes are we going to be treated to? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/284 "2005-01-19T00:00:07Z")
Just want to rubber-stamp what **Hentor the Barbarian** said in an earlier post. I think all the possible arguments have been heard. Considering that **SA** seems to feel that a ridiculous position, once stated, must be maintained forever, no matter how blockheaded it may make him appear, any further discussion is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/285 "2005-01-19T00:04:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How many more of his goodbyes are we going to be treated to? As many as it takes, chum. It just seems rude to drop out of conversations without saying goodbye, and it leads to frustration on the part of one’s opponents who are just faunching at the bit for you to respond to something they said so they can pretend moral superiority over it. It doesn’t mean one can’t return later, leave again, come back, etc. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/286 "2005-01-19T00:07:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How many more of his goodbyes are we going to be treated to? Cher’s Goodbye Tour, Cher’s Final Goodbye Tour, Cher’s No, Really, This Time I Mean It Goodbye Tour… ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/287 "2005-01-19T00:18:29Z")
People will never admit that there are worse scenarios then Saddam in power. I’m not saying the current one mind you, just that the possibility even exists. Nope, there was nothing worse, nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/288 "2005-01-19T02:59:09Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Just want to rubber-stamp what **Hentor the Barbarian** said in an earlier post. I think all the possible arguments have been heard. Considering that **SA** seems to feel that a ridiculous position, once stated, must be maintained forever, no matter how blockheaded it may make him appear, any further discussion is pointless. “Sometimes…I feel there’s a fine line between having conviction and being a dumbass, I think.”- Neil Fallon, Clutch ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/289 "2005-01-19T03:41:24Z")
Well, I believe that the Vikings will win the Superbowl some day. Damn sure wouldn’t argue with anybody about it, though… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/290 "2005-01-19T03:50:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Cher’s Goodbye Tour, Cher’s Final Goodbye Tour, Cher’s No, Really, This Time I Mean It Goodbye Tour… More like Celine Dion’s Fourth Annual Farewell Tour. She does appear to be a starving artist, too. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/291 "2005-01-19T06:03:22Z")
To clarify **SA** ’s position… The ends justify the means. The ends also justify the aftermath. In the event that ends are not accomplished, the attempt to accomplish an end is sufficient to justify the means and/or aftermath\*. My end is to go to work tomorrow. Even if I don’t get anything done, I can always just point to the “Mission Accomplished” banner in my office and tell my boss that I’m victorious! On the positive side, I think that **SA** has completelymotherfuckingredfined “moving the goalposts”. -Joe \*Does not apply to Democratic efforts. Offer not valid in Hawaii, Alaska or Puerto Rico. Please, no CODs. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/292 "2005-01-19T06:07:14Z")
Didja hear Ms. Rice’s line about Saddam “cavorting” with ObL? You can’t make up shit like that. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/293 "2005-01-19T06:41:19Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I note you highlight – amongst other quotes – the following: “According to the Duelfer report, Hussein intended to resume WMD production after the inspections regime was complete and sanctions were lifted.” Let’s parse that sentence, shall we? Because, really, what is Duelfer implying in it and based on what, exactly? ESP? More than a feeling? Loyalty to his employees? How about we call it what it is: unmitigated bullshit based on nothing. How can I be so categorically dismissive of such an expert opinion? Easy, I get past the varnish and right into the substance of his _own report_. I give you credit for being the first person on this thread to spell “Duelfer” correctly, but it seems there is no credit to be awarded for actually reading the report. First, the report was not based upon ESP, nor upon former CIA stooges like Ahmed Chalabi, but on high-ranking officials within the administration itself such as Secretary to the President Abd Hamid Mahmud and Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz. I trust you will consider both these witnesses suitably hostile to US interests and well versed on high-level policy decisions. Second, you cite a single sentence that said the regime had no formal, written plan yet you simultaneously overlook pages and pages documenting that Saddam gave informal verbal guidance to all parties concerned to maintain the knowledge for WMD production wherever possible and in their heads if necessary. It is either a case of selective reading, wilful ignorance, or an integrity problem on your part. I’ll be charitable and go with selective reading. Thus, your accusation of “bullshit” seems to be somewhat self-descriptive, at least on this facet. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/294 "2005-01-19T07:10:30Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Considering that **SA** seems to feel that a ridiculous position, once stated, must be maintained forever, no matter how blockheaded it may make him appear, any further discussion is pointless. You gotta give **Starving Artist** a little slack – he’s just following the example shown by his mentor and idol, GeeDubya Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/295 "2005-01-19T07:11:35Z")
> [@NattoGuy](#): > > I give you credit for being the first person on this thread to spell “Duelfer” correctly, but it seems there is no credit to be awarded for actually reading the report. It would help your case if you actually quoted from the report. It’s several hundred MB, and I ain’t gonna read the whole fucking thing. > [@NattoGuy](#): > > First, the report was not based upon ESP, nor upon former CIA stooges like Ahmed Chalabi, but on high-ranking officials within the administration itself such as Secretary to the President Abd Hamid Mahmud and Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz. I trust you will consider both these witnesses suitably hostile to US interests and well versed on high-level policy decisions. > > Second, you cite a single sentence that said the regime had no formal, written plan yet you simultaneously overlook pages and pages documenting that Saddam gave informal verbal guidance to all parties concerned to maintain the knowledge for WMD production wherever possible and in their heads if necessary. It is either a case of selective reading, wilful ignorance, or an integrity problem on your part. I’ll be charitable and go with selective reading. I presume this is the bit you’re referring to: > [@](#): > > Saddam wanted people to keep knowledge in their heads rather than retain documents that could have been exposed, according to former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq ‘Aziz. Nuclear scientists were told in general terms that the program was over after 1991, and Tariq ‘Aziz inferred that the scientists understood that they should not keep documents or equipment. ‘Aziz also noted that if Saddam had the same opportunity as he did in the 1980s, he probably would have resumed research on nuclear weapons. Pretty damning, no? Uh, no. Perhaps you could explain how this represented some kind of imminent threat? Or even justify Bush’s statement: “If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late.” Is there some scenario where the threat would be “permitted to fully and suddenly emerge”? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/296 "2005-01-19T07:41:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Starving Artist > _Yes, I realized it…and I was ashamed of my country and horrified at what became of the people of South Vietnam when Carter turned tail and ran._ > > Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves > _Um, that would be Ford._ Actually, that would be [Nixon](http://faculty.smu.edu/dsimon/Change-Viet4.html). See also [here](http://faculty.smu.edu/dsimon/Change%20Course/Change-Vietout.html) (showing that troop levels in Vietnam dropped 95% under Nixon). > [@rjung](#): > > You gotta give **Starving Artist** a little slack – he’s just following the example shown by his mentor and idol, GeeDubya Bush. What’s the point of this post? It doesn’t advance any real argument. It’s not clever. It’s not insightful. It’s not interesting. It’s not biting. It doesn’t appear to have been posted solely to express some measure of anger. In fact, it’s just so . . . dull. It’s like you posted an episode of _Committed_. Who are you, and what have you done with **rjung**? I mean, if we’re going to go on for _5 more pages_ of “Bush/Republicans are stupid assholes” posts, the least you guys could do is put some effort into it. Is that asking too much? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/297 "2005-01-19T07:44:32Z")
This is the BBQ Pit, remember? Meaningless posts are the _raison d’etre_ of the place. Besides, spending time trying to be insightful where **Starving Artist** is involved is like trying to scoop water with a screen fence… ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/298 "2005-01-19T08:57:52Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > It would help your case if you actually quoted from the report. It’s several hundred MB, and I ain’t gonna read the whole fucking thing. If you “ain’t gonna read the whole fucking thing” then I guess you ain’t gonna understand the whole fucking issue, sport. I haven’t read it A to Z either but I suspect you haven’t read any of it other than the paragraph you cherry-picked. I’ll include that paragraph along with the paragraphs in context: > [@](#): > > Scientific Research and Intention to Reconstitute WMD > Many former Iraqi officials close to Saddam either heard him say or inferred that he intended to resume WMD programs when sanctions were lifted. Those around him at the time do not believe that he made a decision to permanently abandon > WMD programs.Saddam encouraged Iraqi officials to preserve the nation’s scientific brain trust essential for WMD. Saddam told his advisors as early as 1991 that he wanted to keep Iraq’s nuclear scientists fully employed. This theme of preserving personnel resources persisted throughout the sanctions period. > > • **Saddam’s primary concern was retaining a cadre of skilled scientists to facilitate reconstitution of WMD programs after sanctions were lifted, according to former science advisor Ja’far Diya’ Ja’far Hashim**. Saddam communicated his policy in several meetings with officials from MIC, Ministry of Industry and Minerals, and the IAEC in 1991-1992. Saddam instructed general directors of Iraqi state companies and other state entities to prevent key scientists from the pre-1991 WMD program from leaving the country. This retention of scientists was Iraq’s only step taken to prepare for a resumption of WMD, in Ja’far’s opinion. > • \*\*Presidential secretary ‘Abd Hamid Mahmud wrote that in 1991 Saddam told the scientists that they should “preserve plans in their minds” and “keep the brains of Iraq’s scientists fresh.” \*\* Iraq was to destroy everything apart from knowledge, which would be used to reconstitute a WMD program. > • Saddam wanted people to keep knowledge in their heads rather than retain documents that could have been exposed, according to former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq ‘Aziz. Nuclear scientists were told in general terms that the program was over after 1991, and Tariq ‘Aziz inferred that the scientists understood that they should not keep documents or equipment. ‘Aziz also noted that if Saddam had the same opportunity as he did in the 1980s, he probably would have resumed research on nuclear weapons. > • Ja’far said that Saddam stated on several occasions > that he did not consider ballistic missiles to be WMD and therefore Iraq should not be subject to missile restrictions. Ja’far was unaware of any WMD activities in Iraq after the Gulf war, but said he thought Saddam would reconstitute all WMD > disciplines when sanctions were lifted, although he cautioned that he never heard Saddam say this explicitly. Several former senior Regime officials also contended that nuclear weapons would have been important—if not central—components of > Saddam’s future WMD force. > • **According to two senior Iraqi scientists, in 1993 Husayn Kamil, then the Minister of Military Industrialization, announced in a speech to a large audience of WMD scientists at the Space Research Center in Baghdad that WMD programs would > resume and be expanded, when UNSCOM inspectors left Iraq. Husayn Kamil’s intimate relationship with Saddam added particular credibility to his > remarks** Read that entire passage, and tell me with a straight face that Saddam wasn’t going to re-develop WMD following the imminent lift of sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/299 "2005-01-19T09:40:11Z")
> [@NattoGuy](#): > > following the imminent lift of sanctions. Have you got anything to support your claim that sanction lifting was ‘imminent’? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/300 "2005-01-19T09:56:17Z")
> [@NattoGuy](#): > > If you “ain’t gonna read the whole fucking thing” then I guess you ain’t gonna understand the whole fucking issue, sport. I haven’t read it A to Z either but I suspect you haven’t read any of it other than the paragraph you cherry-picked. I had to read through 75 pages to get to the paragraph I quoted. I picked it because it was the first one I found that provided solid support for _your_ argument, i.e. that according to Tariq Aziz, Saddam never abandoned plans to someday develop nuclear weapons. > [@NattoGuy](#): > > Read that entire passage, and tell me with a straight face that Saddam wasn’t going to re-develop WMD following the imminent lift of sanctions. We’ve gone from “pages and pages” down to a couple of paragraphs, and now you admit that you haven’t even read the whole thing yourself. Exaggerating a bit were you? Now explain the imminent threat, or the “fully and suddenly emerge” bit. On preview, I’ll accept an answer to **Squink** ’s question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669.md?page=16)