# Bushbots, since I can't ask for your brains, get yer asses in here... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 14, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669 "2005-01-14T05:24:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/341 "2005-01-19T22:48:44Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Cite that any American pilots were “threatened” by the Iraqis’ blind shots at them? You want a cite for the proposition that an American aircraft can be brought down by a missile _intentionally fired at the aircraft_ but without radar guidance? Is this the rhetorical equivalent of a drool test? My first cite is to physics. There is only a finite amount of space out there for the plane and missile to exist in. If the plane and missile exist in the same space at the same time, the missile and plane will collide. (I would have thought that was self-evident, but considering the argument I’m responding to, I’m not taking anything for granted.) My second cite is to handguns. You know, the bullets fired by handguns are rarely (if ever) radar guided. Yet they seem to hit their targets quite often. (Do I need a cite for this?) My third cite is to World War 2. In World War 2, lots of planes were [shot out of the sky by ground launched projectiles](http://www.orcadian.co.uk/features/articles/fritz.htm), despite the fact that radar guided missiles [either hadn’t been invented or were not used](http://raytheonmissiledefense.com/static/node3863.html). My fourth cite is to the Battle of Mogadishu. In that battle, 2 American Black Hawk helicopters were [brought down by RPGs](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ambush/firefight/). Note – [the “R” in “RPG” does not stand for “Radar.”](http://www.defense-update.com/products/r/rpg.htm) My fifth cite is to the fact that they have come close enough to cause a pilot to [feel a shock in his cockpit from a supposedly blind fired missile](http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Pentagon/dod-rumsfeldmyers-110402.htm): > [@Richard Myers](#): > > They have come close, they have come close to some of our reconnaissance aircraft. If you remember, it was what, about eight months ago or nine months ago, when the pilot reported feeling the shock from a surface-to-air missile, unguided, supposedly, that went off very close to the air vehicle. My sixth cite is to the fact that these apparently “blind” Iraqis managed to [shoot down an American, unmanned recon plane](http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/12/23/drone/). > [@rjung](#): > > Without the radar, Saddam would have had better odds of winning the Superball Lottery than of hitting an American flyover, and any pilot competent enough to get his jet into the air could easily evade such an “attack.” As long as we’re asking for cites, would you mind providing one for this (in my opinion, rather incredible) assertion? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/342 "2005-01-19T22:52:30Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > You should consider becoming a circus contortionist. Oh, quite the contrary. It’s all I can do just to try to keep straightening out the contortions that are attributed to what I do say. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/343 "2005-01-19T22:57:07Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Oh, quite the contrary. It’s all I can do just to try to keep straightening out the contortions that are attributed to what I do say. So you refute contortions “attributed” to you with goalline nudging and semantic acrobatics. Interesting. I’d have more respect if you just started using the Chewbacca defense instead. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/344 "2005-01-19T23:07:28Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Cite that any American pilots were “threatened” by the Iraqis’ blind shots at them? > > Without the radar, Saddam would have had better odds of winning the Superball Lottery than of hitting an American flyover, and any pilot competent enough to get his jet into the air could easily evade such an “attack.” Serbs shot down a stealth fighter with such a blind shot. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/345 "2005-01-19T23:08:02Z")
US/Allied casualties during the decade of enforcing the no-fly zones: 0 dead, 0 wounded. Extrapolate from that all you like. US/Allied casualties in two years of Bush’s war: [Recheck frequently, it keeps rising.](http://icasualties.org/oif/). The threat to Americans, to the extent it even existed, was traded for the reality of 1300+ dead, roughly 6000 permanently maimed. The **SA** ’s and **AQA** ’s of the world claim that’s _good_. But they’re not the contortionists, no. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/346 "2005-01-19T23:08:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A quibble in the midst of larger topics. It’s a minor point, but that’s the trouble with quibbles. > > Firing on our aircraft. Remember Rummy talking about this, in terms of gasping horror, how the Iraqis had fired over 700 missiles at our airplanes. Funny thing he forgot to mention: they didn’t hit any. They didn’t even come close to hitting any. Why? Because they never turned on thier radar guidance systems. > > Without them, ground to air interceptor rockets are very expensive fireworks. If you got thoroughly drunk, blindfolded yourself, and took potshots at flying ducks with a .22 pistol, you had a better chance of scoring a hit. > > And yet it keeps coming up, “firing at our aircraft!” Firing into the air when our aircraft were in the general vicinity was closer to the truth. I mean, come on, 700 plus shots and not even _one_ hit? Well, hell, while we’re quibling, you wouldn’t happen to have the actual number of US aircraft that Iraqi forces _shot down during the actual invasion_, would ya? I mean, I figure’s gotta be _a lot_, what with fighting an invading force and all. I bet they turned on their radar guidence systems and F-16s were just falling down er…left and right all over Baghdag, correct? BTW, forget the drones of death for a sec – if that’s even possible, I know I’m scarred for life just contemplating the thought – what about the mighty Iraqi Air Force? Mustta given the USAF some nasty dogfights, huh? Dropped tons of ordinance on the advancing hordes did they? And don’t _eve_n get me started on the WMDs display they put on! Holy crap! Amazing there’s an American soldier left to tell about it! Yep, no doubt, these are all the “proofs” any sane person needs to realize just what a HUGE THREAT a Third World Nation, devastated by over a decade of sanctions, chaparoned and inspected down to their soiled shorts and with a minute military budget could pose to the greatest military force ever asembled in the history of mankind. Look! THAT way! Isn’t that Andorra that just bought a model-airplane building kit! Rummmmy! Assemble the troops! Carrier groups to the Atlantic and Mediterranean _now_! Wadda you mean we _already have them there_? Freedom’s on the march, Rummy! Always! Those Commie Swedes without an Army should be eternally grateful to me! What?! No, not Swiss, I said _Swedes_, the ones that live right next to Argentina! Now get cracking! Making our own reality is _hard work_ as you well know! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/347 "2005-01-19T23:09:16Z")
The Serb shot was nowhere near blind, **Brutus**. But you knew that, right? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/348 "2005-01-19T23:14:13Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > American Black Hawk helicopters were brought down by RPGs. Note – the “R” in “RPG” does not stand for “Radar.” Have many of those patrolling – and bombing – the unilaterally-imposed no-fly zone at 20,000 ft and flying at Mach+, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/349 "2005-01-19T23:15:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The Serb shot was nowhere near blind, **Brutus**. But you knew that, right? Ya it was. They fired off salvoes of SA-3s without proper tracking, much less a lock. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/350 "2005-01-19T23:23:03Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Does this incompetent analogy also apply to when they attack US troops? Or when they attack innocent Iraqis? Or sabotage infrastructure? > > [BBC News | Europe | Downed Nato pilot rescued](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/306036.stm) > > Remember the downed stealth fighter? Iraqis were shooting down US planes in _Serbia_? Learn something every day. Or mebbe not. Time to gather your toy-soldiers and join the rest of your skin-head kiddies in the Romper Room, l’bubba. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/351 "2005-01-19T23:26:03Z")
They could \*see \* the frackin’ thing, **Brutus**. It was broad daylight, it had come over their position every day at the same time, the same (low) altitude, the same (low) airspeed, and even the same direction, making a very audible racket at that, for a week. Who needs radar? No such situation existed in Iraq. But you know that too. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/352 "2005-01-19T23:31:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They could \*see \* the frackin’ thing,. Cylons! Cylons, where!?!?!? Oh, oh, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/353 "2005-01-19T23:31:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > They could \*see \* the frackin’ thing, **Brutus**. It was broad daylight, it had come over their position every day at the same time, the same (low) altitude, the same (low) airspeed, and even the same direction, making a very audible racket at that, for a week. Who needs radar? > > No such situation existed in Iraq. But you know that too. 15,000-25,000 feet at 20:45 local time does not stike me as low altitude or daytime. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/354 "2005-01-19T23:31:59Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Have many of those patrolling – and bombing – the unilaterally-imposed no-fly zone at 20,000 ft and flying at Mach+, did you? The fuck is this? Aside from being totally beside the point, what good do you suppose it does to respond to _one single example_ in a list of 6? This is terribly shoddy work, even by the standard set in your OP. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/355 "2005-01-19T23:46:41Z")
[Click ‘N’ Learn:](http://www.afa.org/magazine/june2001/0601stealth.asp) > [@](#): > > According to these officials, the true culprits were NATO constraints on how F-117s could approach Kosovo in the early days of Operation Allied Force, the intense media coverage of aircraft taking off from Aviano, Italy, and the presence in Italy of spies who sent immediate reports of air activity to Serbian gunners. These factors allowed the Serbs to make gross estimates of the whereabouts of aircraft en route to targets in Yugoslavia, the F-117 among them. > > “We were more predictable than we should have been, under the circumstances,” said one senior official. > > About 20 miles outside of Belgrade, the F-117’s luck ran out. An undetected surface-to-air missile battery was lurking in the darkness below. It had not appeared on intelligence maps of the area, and the F-117 pilot was not aware of it. When **the F-117 became briefly visible on radar as it opened its bomb bay doors** , Serb radar operators on the ground, aware that an F-117 would be entering their area, had a momentary opportunity to shoot. It is possible that they didn’t even have a radar lock on the stealth airplane but were **close enough to guide the missile optically**. Badly damaged by the blast of the warhead, the F-117 could not be controlled, and the pilot ejected. He was soon rescued. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/356 "2005-01-20T00:09:18Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > And you’re a bigoted, hateful bastard. Point? Was there any point, exactly? Or did you just need to ignite the argument and get a shot in at the resident “commie Bastard” who just happens to think differently than you? > > We’re a group of people who is used to debating and arguing amongst ourselves and till this point, nobody had hurled flat-out insults about a person’s character. If you can’t keep it at least a little less personal, I suggest you go fuck off with the little kids for a while. Nice to know how Sam portrays hypocrisy at its best. Asshole. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/357 "2005-01-20T00:32:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [Click ‘N’ Learn:](http://www.afa.org/magazine/june2001/0601stealth.asp) I don’t see how that refutes anything I said, and I am rather suspect of the ‘optical tracking’ angle some articles take. Black aircraft + sundown + crappy russian optic system = I dunno about that. [Another take on the matter.](http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/europe/041199kosovo-stealth.html) The point, however, is that purportedly outdated systems can be threats to even our most advanced aircraft, given the right circumstances. And similiar incidents, though fortunately without Allied casualties,[did take place in Iraq enforcing the no-fly zone.](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/northern_watch-1998.htm) > [@](#): > > …The SA-3 site used both radar and optics when firing their offensive missiles. I am sure the Allied pilots enforcing the no-fly zone didn’t flash a happy smile when missles were fired at them, no matter if some people don’t seem to think those missles were a threat to the pilots. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/358 "2005-01-20T00:37:15Z")
Geeze, can’t we all just get back to our [calling from beyond the stars](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050120/ap_on_go_pr_wh/inaugural_rdp) and unite for freedom and liberty? > [@](#): > > Offering a preview of Thursday’s inaugural address, Bush said he would speak about freedom. “This is the cause that unites our country and gives hope to the world and will lead us to a future of peace. We have a calling from beyond the stars to stand for freedom, and America will always be faithful to that cause.” Where the hell _is_ [the love](http://www.anysonglyrics.com/lyrics/b/blackeyedpeas/whereisthelove.htm)? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/359 "2005-01-20T00:42:30Z")
Hmmm, I bet if I used that “I have a calling beyond the stars” thingie in court, I’d be thrown in an insane asylum. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669/360 "2005-01-20T00:44:52Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Hmmm, I bet if I used that “I have a calling beyond the stars” thingie in court, I’d be thrown in an insane asylum. Then again, if you were a poet you could refer to a destiny beyond the stars as humanity reaching its full potential and becoming cosmic travelers. Bush, however, isn’t a poet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushbots-since-i-cant-ask-for-your-brains-get-yer-asses-in-here/284669.md?page=19)