# Bushco..in order to pay for our war... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602 "2005-02-06T02:38:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/81 "2005-02-08T16:12:33Z")
> [@Maus Magill](#): > > Except this budget will not lower the deficit. It assumes the tax cuts will roll back, which the president is trying to prevent, it also does not include the costs of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. That’s right, it’s a “wartime budget” which does not include the costs of the war. One point - this budget has the possibility to lower the deficit, but does so by cutting to the bone social programs such as HUD, education, environmental protections, etc… I am dead certain that any further cuts required to fund the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan won’t come out of the DOD’s budget and don’t look likely to come out of oilfield profits from the region either considering that the last time I looked we were still importing gas and oil into Iraq for vital services. Not that this budget is likely to pass - I can’t imagine even the notoriously short-sighted Republicans supporting this farce. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/82 "2005-02-08T16:14:03Z")
The budget is a big shell game. That’s all. There will be no decrease in national debt, no balancing of the books, just poorly planned chaos accompanied by jingoistic hogwash. In one thing, I agree with Ryan\_Liam. We started a war, we brought down their govenment. Now we have to make sure the Iraqis get a fair chance to get things organized - after all, if we bail out right now, there will be a power vacuum and possibly civil war. We can’t set an arbitrary timetable for withdrawal because that would only cause the troublemakers to start watching the calendar. I was against the war, I still am. But if we leave the place the way it is, it could be even worse than before. I don’t think we will ever get a balanced budget or even ay straight answers from the administration in the near future. Last night, there was a reporter/news analyst on TV. He said some (to me) very chilling things. He said the administration et al have their own personal crusade, to spread their view of “freedom” throughout the world. It is their Prime Directive, and takes priority over everything. It takes priority over the budget, public welfare, everything. He said that according to Wolfowitz (I didn’t verify), the reason Bush kept harping on WMD was because it would be easier to sell to us than the “freedom thing”. Finally, he claims that the Social Security “reforms” are a sham. Our SS tax money will go into “private” accounts OK, but at the end we will not get any windfalls, and will not get what we paid in; we will get an annuity, even smaller than we get now. I have no cites, other than these claims, and have not had time to verify. But it all has the ring of truth. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/83 "2005-02-08T16:42:21Z")
> [@](#): > > They can’t govern Iraq without the blessing of the other two ethnic groups, you cunt kicking cunt. Right, because it is impossible for ethnic majorities, let alone minorities, to govern without the consent of other ethnic groups. The history of African political stability is a testament to this iron law of governance. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/84 "2005-02-08T17:06:39Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > America has more additional resources than anyone on the planet. Case closed. Excuse me? The point of this thread is that the US seems to be reaching it’s breaking limit. We’re in some pretty bad shape financially if we don’t make some tough decisions now. I say start cutting foreign aid first, then cut our services second. > [@](#): > > Yes, of course you don’t. Do you know why 9/11 happened? You all seem to tell me it was ignorant and arrogant selfish American policy, do you see anything wrong with your statement? Well according to OBL it was for meddling in the affairs of other countries. Looks like my idea of telling countries they’re on their own would solve _two_ problems. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/85 "2005-02-08T18:25:22Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Right, because it is impossible for ethnic majorities, let alone minorities, to govern without the consent of other ethnic groups. The history of African political stability is a testament to this iron law of governance. As we’ve seen, I don’t think the Sunnis let alone Kurds will take it lying down, will they? > [@](#): > > Well according to OBL it was for meddling in the affairs of other countries. Looks like my idea of telling countries they’re on their own would solve two problems. I thought it was more of our bias towards the Israeli Palestine situation, where it appeared we didn’t give two shits about them. > [@](#): > > **Gomiboy** > > Oh, and sweetie, I am not a leftist. I am not a conservative, that’s for damn sure, because I actually have a heart and believe in personal freedoms rather than government control, but I am definitely not a leftist as I believe in strong personal responsibility and I am a hawk in most matters. Yes, of course you are. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I think the word you’re looking for in your mentally deficient little brain spasm above is ‘licking.’ At least I assume so, but with you little braindead chavs anymore, maybe that’s the new and coming thing. And don’t think you’re going to impress me with saying cunt over and over and over. I outgrew insulting people by comparing them to women’s body parts when I was ten. Chavs? I was quoting an excellent insult from the legend that was Peter Cook of his Derek and Clive recordings 🙂 And we all know Chavs are anti war 😉 > [@](#): > > I just don’t like you much. I think you are woefully ignorant and you should just shut the fuck up if you can’t contribute more than party lines and spewed vitriol to the debate. At least Brutus, while also ignorant, selfish and rude, is funny sometimes. You’re just boring. This is hillarious, so I should shut up because you don’t like my opinion? Man, free speech is a kick in the balls isn’t it? > [@](#): > > 20% Sunni, 20% Kurdish (mostly Sunni but not all), 60% Shi’a. Each block has their own representatives and their own agenda. A small percentage of each is also covered within the ‘nationalist’ parties that do not go strictly along Religious / race lines such as the party of the current interim PM. The non-Kurdish Sunnis have been the largest part of the ongoing insurgency and have refused to take part in the electoral process in Iraq thus far. The Kurds are agitating for their own independent state and have been since 1992 or so, not just in Iraq but in Turkey and Syria as well. Yet the Sunnis have respected the choice the electorate chosen, and want to take part in the drafting of the constitution. Of course the Kurds are advocating an independent state, but they’re not stupid. They won’t throw away all they’ve gained in the coming months on a declaration of independence, they’ll get what they want eventually, but this will be in generations to come. They are fully advocating a federalised Iraqi state, which will guarantee their self governing status. > [@](#): > > You still think a 20% minority, at odds with both the majority and the other minorities, can get anything done in Iraq? The non-Kurds certainly thought so. That’s why they picked up AK-47s and improvised explosives. Yes, 99% of the Sunni population are in a war against the rest of them? Are you blind to the fact people accomodate such assholes so they won’t get killed? Or how if they speak out, they get killed? Are you blind to the fact that even when Sunni turnout was low, it was to a large part of the violence and not the boycott? Trying to portray Iraq as a disaster is ludicrous. Oh look, Baghdad, a Sunni and Shia split city, turnout was at 95% [Election bolsters new spiirit in Iraq](http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=330633) [Asked if reports of better-than-expected turnout in areas where Sunni and Shiite Muslims live together indicated that a Sunni cleric boycott effort had failed, one of the main groups pushing the boycott seemed to soften its stance.](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050130/D87UET800.html) Iraq is not a disaster. I’ll support the newly formed government as much as the interim one that was before it. Instead of attacking Iraqis for electing who they want, and deciding their own choices, we should rally around them. > [@](#): > > You’re just boring I’m not here to make you laugh, or to entertain you, I’m giving you my opinion. If you don’t like it, don’t read it and fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/86 "2005-02-08T18:29:47Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Right, because it is impossible for ethnic majorities, let alone minorities, to govern without the consent of other ethnic groups. The history of African political stability is a testament to this iron law of governance. Translates to = Arabs can’t have democractic systems, they’re too violent. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/87 "2005-02-08T18:57:20Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Translates to = Arabs can’t have democractic systems, they’re too violent. No it doesn’t? **You:** Everything will be fine, minority X will get along with majority Y no prob. **Us:** Well there are plenty of examples were this isn’t the case **You:** you think Arabs are too violent and can’t be democratic WTF? Can you even see that HISTORICALLY, there is a good chance these people will not get along? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/88 "2005-02-08T19:10:52Z")
**Ryan:** \*Oh look, Baghdad, a Sunni and Shia split city, turnout was at 95% \* Do you have a cite for that? My understanding was that turnout in Baghdad was lower than average, particularly due to low turnout in the Sunni-majority districts like al-Yarmuk and al-Amariya. Maybe you were referring specifically to some Shia-majority districts of Baghdad? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/89 "2005-02-08T19:59:17Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Translates to = Arabs can’t have democractic systems, they’re too violent. I understand. When I refer to, say, the failures of representative government in Ghana due to tribal rivalry, I am really saying that Arabs are too violent for democracy. Perhaps you can correct my misunderstandings regarding the collapse of cocoa production in Ghana and the concomitant persecution of the Ashanti. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/90 "2005-02-08T20:05:43Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Translates to = Arabs can’t have democractic systems, they’re too violent. sorta like “case closed” translates to : “I can’t argue any better than this”, right? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/91 "2005-02-08T20:18:37Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I understand. When I refer to, say, the failures of representative government in Ghana due to tribal rivalry, I am really saying that Arabs are too violent for democracy. > > Perhaps you can correct my misunderstandings regarding the collapse of cocoa production in Ghana and the concomitant persecution of the Ashanti. Thanks in advance. Don’t ever mention Europeans and palm oil. [sub]ssssshhhhhh[/sub] /tip toes off ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/92 "2005-02-08T20:38:11Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Don’t ever mention Europeans and palm oil. [sub]ssssshhhhhh[/sub] > > /tip toes off Of course not. That might lead our intrepid **Ryan** to claim that white people are too violent for democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/93 "2005-02-08T21:19:04Z")
> [@wring](#): > > sorta like “case closed” translates to : “I can’t argue any better than this”, right? not really, I just thought it as a witty retort. If you’ve seen me argue with the likes of FinnAgain and WorldEater, I don’t give up easily. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/94 "2005-02-08T21:36:25Z")
Even simpler **Ryan**. We can’t pay our full rent and bills, yet we’re giving away piles of money to charity. All I’m suggesting is put the charity on hold, and take care of _our_ responsibilities first. Nice and simple eh? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/95 "2005-02-08T21:41:13Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I understand. When I refer to, say, the failures of representative government in Ghana due to tribal rivalry, I am really saying that Arabs are too violent for democracy. > > Perhaps you can correct my misunderstandings regarding the collapse of cocoa production in Ghana and the concomitant persecution of the Ashanti. Thanks in advance. I’m sorry, but, what has this got to do with Iraq? > [@](#): > > Of course not. That might lead our intrepid Ryan to claim that white people are too violent for democracy Exactly. I don’t share your view of Arabs not being able to attain representative government just because you don’t approve of the methods. > [@](#): > > **WorldEater** > > You: Everything will be fine, minority X will get along with majority Y no prob. > > Can you even see that HISTORICALLY, there is a good chance these people will not get along? Yep, but one can see such examples in Europe itself, the unification of Scots and English peoples, two groups of people who were constantly at war with the other, yet remain unified in a single state. Strange no? Yes, I do see the dangers, the ways in which Iraq can Yugoslav itself easily, but I also see the average Iraqis desire to see the country stay together, to not break apart, for things to improve without genocide being committed in the same of having a seperate identity. > [@](#): > > **Kimstu** > > Do you have a cite for that? My understanding was that turnout in Baghdad was lower than average, particularly due to low turnout in the Sunni-majority districts like al-Yarmuk and al-Amariya. Maybe you were referring specifically to some Shia-majority districts of Baghdad? Oh my [Turnout in Baghdad 95%](http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12102243%5E601,00.html) > [@](#): > > **World Eater** > > We can’t pay our full rent and bills, yet we’re giving away piles of money to charity. All I’m suggesting is put the charity on hold, and take care of our responsibilities first. Yes, charity, except if you don’t keep giving and helping the Iraqis to learn themselves how to defend their people against terror, then it’s all for nothing. Pulling out will signal exactly that, it was for nothing. I however disagree. > [@](#): > > Nice and simple eh? Yes, and callous too 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/96 "2005-02-08T21:58:12Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yep, but one can see such examples in Europe itself, the unification of Scots and English peoples, two groups of people who were constantly at war with the other, yet remain unified in a single state. Strange no? > > Yes, I do see the dangers, the ways in which Iraq can Yugoslav itself easily, but I also see the average Iraqis desire to see the country stay together, to not break apart, for things to improve without genocide being committed in the same of having a seperate identity. _How_ and _where_ do you see the “average” Iraqis desire for their country to stay together? Do you live in Bagdad? > [@](#): > > Yes, charity, except if you don’t keep giving and helping the Iraqis to learn themselves how to defend their people against terror, then it’s all for nothing. Pulling out will signal exactly that, it was for nothing. I however disagree. Dude, I didn’t even mention Iraq. I’m saying this country is living beyond our means, and I drew up an example that even a 5-year old could understand. Stop applying everything we say to Iraq, ok? > [@](#): > > Yes, and callous too 🙂 Callous? Exchanging the suffering of one set of people for an unrelated set of people? I should say we’re calloous because _more_ people are dying in Sudan then ever will in Iraq, yet we don’t lift a finger. If I had a choice where the money went, it would go to Sudan before Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/97 "2005-02-08T22:27:27Z")
What’s all the blood and steam for? Remember, Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter – it’s all pretend money anyway. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/98 "2005-02-08T22:57:15Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > no balancing of the books [It’s been done before](http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/html/19980202-14467.html). Of course, six years ago we had a President getting blows, not one whose blowing is between his ears. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/99 "2005-02-08T23:00:53Z")
> [@](#): > > How and where do you see the “average” Iraqis desire for their country to stay together? Do you live in Bagdad? What people, apart from Kurds, have wanted to see Iraq fracture? > [@](#): > > Dude, I didn’t even mention Iraq. I’m saying this country is living beyond our means, and I drew up an example that even a 5-year old could understand. Yes, the old ‘you’re childish’ method. I knew what you said, and I know that a large proportion of aid is going to the country I specified, thats why I mentioned it. > [@](#): > > Callous? Exchanging the suffering of one set of people for an unrelated set of people? I should say we’re calloous because more people are dying in Sudan then ever will in Iraq, yet we don’t lift a finger. If I had a choice where the money went, it would go to Sudan before Iraq. I personally blame the UN. All talk and no balls. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/100 "2005-02-08T23:01:25Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > [It’s been done before](http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/New/html/19980202-14467.html). Of course, six years ago we had a President getting blows, not one whose blowing is between his ears. Are you suggesting some correlation between blowjobs and balanced budgets? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602.md?page=6)