# Bushco..in order to pay for our war... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 6, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602 "2005-02-06T02:38:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/141 "2005-02-09T22:00:00Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > THE US IS DOING A SHITTY JOB OF CONTROLLING IRAQ. Get that? What makes you think that the Iraqis will _ever_ be able to control their country? Yes, yes, the place is hopeless quagmire, and no progress is being made. I seem to recall you saying this awhile back, and I also seem to recall you owe me $20 over it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/142 "2005-02-09T22:06:29Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Yes, yes, the place is hopeless quagmire, and no progress is being made. > > I seem to recall you saying this awhile back, and I also seem to recall you owe me $20 over it. 😛 Hey buddy, it’s not my fault you don’t check your email. Let me know what you want to do, donate it, paypal it, forget it, let me know. I’m good on my word, and my email is in my profile. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/143 "2005-02-09T22:15:20Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Hey buddy, it’s not my fault you don’t check your email. Let me know what you want to do, donate it, paypal it, forget it, let me know. I’m good on my word, and my email is in my profile. Bah. Friggin’ Hotmail must have ate it. Pick any US-based charity benefitting Iraqis. I’ll take your word on it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/144 "2005-02-09T23:00:04Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Bah. Friggin’ Hotmail must have ate it. > > Pick any US-based charity benefitting Iraqis. I’ll take your word on it. 😉 Will do. /betting days are over //for now 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/145 "2005-02-09T23:04:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yes. And? Isn’t that out objective until we can withdraw, besides, what political interest would there be to do half assed training and declare success? > > This is what I don’t understand. Why would the administration unilaterally withdraw from Iraq if it knew the concequences of doing so before the security forces of Iraq were ready would be absolutely horrendous? Because the political pressure to do so will become inexorable. Bush doesn’t need to be re-elected, but Senators and Congressmen do, as well as the Republican candidate for president in 2008. > [@](#): > > Yes, our forces will withdraw, but piecemeal, ensuring that until the end, Iraqis have support of our forces. Even then I don’t think we’ll withdraw, we’ll still maintain a presence in the military and economic establishments. I see; and how long will it take until the Iraqi forces reach the even the minimal level of security that the US Army & Marines have arrayed against the insurgency? Remember these are the same security forces that have no armored vehicles, and travel mostly in pick-up trucks, and out of the 150,000 claimed by the Bush administration, perhaps only 9,000 are capable of mounting any kind of meaningful opposition to the insurgency. > [@](#): > > Rubbish. this has been claimed ever since the war ended, still hasn’t happened, and the Coaltiion and Iraqi people have taken everything that has been thrown at them. . Read my post again, Ryan. The clock doesn’t start until a Republican president withdraws the troops. Then the wheels fall off the cart. > [@](#): > > Apart from the rise in violence, the situation is moving forward. Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln? > [@](#): > > People seem to forget that terrorists, when cornered raise the stakes to unimaginably high proportions for maximum effect. Call me when you have the insurgents cornered. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/146 "2005-02-09T23:07:05Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln? Man I wish I could come up with retorts like that, that’s hysterical. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/147 "2005-02-10T01:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I see; and how long will it take until the Iraqi forces reach the even the minimal level of security that the US Army & Marines have arrayed against the insurgency? Remember these are the same security forces that have no armored vehicles, and travel mostly in pick-up trucks, and out of the 150,000 claimed by the Bush administration, perhaps only 9,000 are capable of mounting any kind of meaningful opposition to the insurgency. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/148 "2005-02-10T01:39:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Cite? Don’t forget the cite showing 150,000 ready to rock and roll. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/149 "2005-02-10T02:13:15Z")
[Training Iraqis: the Facts](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64965-2005Feb4.html) > [@](#): > > By Joseph R. Biden Jr. > Sunday, February 6, 2005 > During Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s confirmation, much was made of the dueling numbers she and I advanced regarding Iraq’s security forces. Rice said there are about 125,000 trained Iraqi security forces. I maintained that the real number was between 4,000 and 18,000. What explains the discrepancy?.. Short answer: Disagreement over how much training is needed to count someone as ‘trained’, and over how many of those ‘trained’ have the equipment needed to operate independently. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/150 "2005-02-10T04:28:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Cite? [Iraqi security forces developing – slowly](http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040805-091730-8630r.htm) > [@](#): > > “I don’t think Washington is being told the truth,” said Col. Jerry L. Durrant, the Marine in charge of training and equipping Iraqi security forces in Anbar Province, the “wild west” of Iraq that includes the Syrian border, Fallujah and Ramadi. > > “The (Iraqi National Guard) has been operating without radios for a year. They haven’t had vehicles for a year. They don’t have body armor. They don’t have helmets. We went out and bought some Motorola radios for them, we bought some vehicles for them, but none of that stuff has come from Baghdad. And there’s still no radios,” Durrant said. > [@](#): > > “They had these equipment numbers: 9,000 of this and 12,000 of this. And I called Baghdad, and I said I just saw these notes I wasn’t supposed to see. Where’d these numbers come from? If 12,000 sets of armor came in, where’s my stuff? Where are the 9,000 vehicles? Why don’t I have them?” > > Durrant’s ING forces are owed 7,200 sets of body armor. They’ve received just 350. They are owed 7,200 pairs of boots. They have received none. They are owed 1,400 vehicles. They have received 30. > [@](#): > > At press briefings and interviews, Pentagon officials proudly tout the large number of Iraqi security forces - 225,000 at last count. A lot hangs on that figure. As soon as Iraqi security forces are able to keep order, American forces can go home. > > But it is pretty clear that number is meaningless, at least in Anbar Province. > > “Someone is manipulating the numbers. We’ve got 11,000 on the (police) payroll, but that includes widows and retirees, that includes ghosts. We don’t have 11,000 police in this province,” Durrant said. > > “You go down to a police station, and there are 30 or 40 ‘lazy’ Iraqi police laying around. Why are they laying around? Because they can’t go anywhere without cars,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/151 "2005-02-10T15:58:32Z")
I was speaking with a friend of mine who’s in the Officer Training Corps of the British Army, they had a discussion with a few officers who had been coming back from training the Iraqi Army and police forces. Basically what they said was that training was too quick, ten days to learn effect countermeasures in anti terrorism? Well, anyway, what they said was that these people were eager to learn and fight, just more longer training and development of their potential was needed. In the British Army, training of this sort takes _3 weeks_ and many more months honing in on those capabilities. I expect to see a dramatic shift in the development of the Iraqi forces potental, with the added bonuses of NATO members now starting to offer and actually help in the assistance of training Iraq police forces. With now the American and British emphasis on good independent security forces, this will only improve the situation, but I admit it won’t happen all at once, it will take time maybe a _few_ years, but the situation of their capabilities will improve, shit they’re already improving. Compare 2003 Iraqi police and army to 2004, and the difference shows an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602/152 "2005-02-10T16:21:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I was speaking with a friend of mine who’s in the Officer Training Corps of the British Army, they had a discussion with a few officers who had been coming back from training the Iraqi Army and police forces. > > Basically what they said was that training was too quick, ten days to learn effect countermeasures in anti terrorism? Well, anyway, what they said was that these people were eager to learn and fight, just more longer training and development of their potential was needed. > > In the British Army, training of this sort takes _3 weeks_ and many more months honing in on those capabilities. I expect to see a dramatic shift in the development of the Iraqi forces potental, with the added bonuses of NATO members now starting to offer and actually help in the assistance of training Iraq police forces. > > With now the American and British emphasis on good independent security forces, this will only improve the situation, but I admit it won’t happen all at once, it will take time maybe a _few_ years, but the situation of their capabilities will improve, shit they’re already improving. Compare 2003 Iraqi police and army to 2004, and the difference shows an improvement. As w’ve stated repeatedly, the shit won’t hit the fan until the US pulls out. I don’t care about the “difference and improvement” because that doesn’t mean shit. Our army was there in 2003 and 2004, talk to me when they improve without us holding their hand. I can’t believe that you eat up all their lies and bullshit so willingly. Oh just a few more years? What the hell is a few more years, 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? My god the money we’re wasting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-in-order-to-pay-for-our-war/288602.md?page=7)