# BushCo outs our al-Qaeda infiltrator?! (Incompetent, malevolent, who gives a flip??) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831 "2004-08-08T01:01:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/81 "2004-08-10T16:45:14Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > That’s not a mistake due to the complexity associated with a large bureacracy. That’s criminal incompetence. Oh good. So it’s not just me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/82 "2004-08-10T18:13:14Z")
**Moto** , never mind some fucking technical snafu in the Clinton era, the current White House has been leaking like a sieve for some time now. This is not the first incident. We also have the revenge-outing of Valarie Plame as well as a cheap con-artist named Chalabi who plucked the Bushistas like rubes at a carnival for over a year. This is three _major_ failures of security in the last two years alone. As you mentioned, John Deutch was fired for a relatively trivial technical mistake yet _not one person_ in the Bush WH has even been identified, much less fired for any of these major-league fuck ups, all of which have had _real_, not theoretical, ramifications for US security and the safety of its own operatives. Don’t you want to know _why_ no one has been fired? Do you realize that the intel which has been compromised in these breeches is not low level stuff? Whoever is responsible has to be pretty well connected. Are you content to let the WH delay any investigations or sanctions until after the election? I’m not. BTW, assuming that all of these breeches are simply some kind f innocent fuck ups is being very kind. Chalabi maybe but not the rest. Plame was no accident, ad there was absolutely no reason to out this mole either except for politics. My god, what kind of morons out their own moles? Bush probably announces what his own cards are while he’s playing poker. He probable informs his friends in advance when he’s planning a surprise party for them. He probably tells his wife that her ass looks fat. Come on, Shrub, leran to keep something to yourself, will you please. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/83 "2004-08-11T01:34:49Z")
Is this the same Mr. Moto that went apeshit all about Sandy Berger mishandling a few documents over [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=267284&highlight=berger)? > [@](#): > > “This kind of thing lands people in jail. This goes way past careless to criminal.” > [@](#): > > And what if it were Bush administration officials hiding papers in their suit coats and sneaking them home? I think we can all predict how you’d react, **Reeder** , thank you very much. > [@](#): > > Motive isn’t an issue here. Behavior is, though. Failure to follow established procedures for classified material is inexcusable. And I would be just as hard on Mr. Berger if he was a Republican. Do I detect a kindler gentler Moto when the Bushies fuck up? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/84 "2004-08-11T03:02:37Z")
No. If someone revealed what they shouldn’t have, they should be prosecuted. I’m no fan of double standards. Though I am detecting some, on the part of people who reflexively defended Berger but now want Bush administration officials heads on platters. Attend to the planks in your own fucking eyes. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/85 "2004-08-11T03:24:48Z")
? > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > There were major SCIF violations during the Clinton administration at the White House. They involved loading classified disks onto unclassified laptops, and hooking those laptops up to classified networks. > > John Deutch, the head of the CIA, was fired in this era for improper computer security. > > Not as sexy as a revealed name, I know. But this sort of thing is every bit as dangerous in its potential to deliver information to the enemy. Please recall that we know a lot about al-Qaida because some discarded laptops of theirs were discovered by an American journalist in a market in Afghanistan. > \*\*All this is not to excuse present behavior in the slightest. \*\* No? Then what the fuck is it? > [@](#): > > And I would be just as hard on Mr. Berger if he was a Republican. Well you had your chance here to be hard on a Republican and I don’t see it. > [@](#): > > **If** someone revealed what they shouldn’t have, they should be prosecuted. What do you mean _if_ idiot ? They DID. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/86 "2004-08-11T03:37:33Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > No? Then what the fuck is it? An answer to a question posed directly to me. Don’t be an idiot. Look, heads oughta roll on this one, and somebody might buy a little time in the clink for good measure. I fully support such action. It’s the only way to keep the rest of the government, handling classified material, honest. If the leak was approved at a high level, prosecution should start there. I hope this leaves little doubt as to my position on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/87 "2004-08-11T03:51:49Z")
My local paper played up this whole thing as Bush averting the planned attacks. In America, Bush will probably get credit for the arrests, despite the fact that due to his administration’s outing of the mole the operation was ruined, our allies are furious, some of the suspects got away, others may end up getting off, and we have lost an invaluable weapon against terrorism. Not that most people here will ever know it. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/88 "2004-08-11T04:07:10Z")
You were asked about the White House exposing moles, moron. You avoided answering the question by posting crap about other types of security breaches. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/89 "2004-08-11T04:09:08Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > No. If someone revealed what they shouldn’t have, they should be prosecuted. I’m no fan of double standards. > > Though I am detecting some, on the part of people who reflexively defended Berger but now want Bush administration officials heads on platters. > > Attend to the planks in your own fucking eyes. Tell me, fucker: To whom did Berger release classified information? Which sources did he out? Against whom did he enact some kind of bullshit political agenda by releasing the name of a CIA undercover operative? Which conduit to Iran did he tell about our intercepting their communications? To these egregious security violations, for which no responsibility has been taken, you equate Berger and Deutch, a guy who immediately acknowledged what he had done and a guy who was fired. Planks. Party of personal responsibility. You’re pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/90 "2004-08-11T10:21:44Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > No. If someone revealed what they shouldn’t have, they should be prosecuted. I’m no fan of double standards. > > Though I am detecting some, on the part of people who reflexively defended Berger but now want Bush administration officials heads on platters. > > Attend to the planks in your own fucking eyes. I guess we need to discuss the definitions of ‘mote’ and ‘plank’. In one case (Khan), we’re talking about the casual revelation of a priceless bit of intelligence that should have only been shared _within the government itself_ on a need-to-know basis. And on the other (Berger), the worst-case consequences were trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/91 "2004-08-11T13:37:42Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I guess we need to discuss the definitions of ‘mote’ and ‘plank’. > > In one case (Khan), we’re talking about the casual revelation of a priceless bit of intelligence that should have only been shared _within the government itself_ on a need-to-know basis. And on the other (Berger), the worst-case consequences were trivial. And here you’re just trying to excuse what Berger did. Never mind that disclosure of the documents he removed from positive control could have aided our enemies greatly. And disclosure becomes very possible when security procedures are flouted in such brazen ways. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/92 "2004-08-11T14:11:00Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And here you’re just trying to excuse what Berger did. Never mind that disclosure of the documents he removed from positive control could have aided our enemies greatly. And disclosure becomes very possible when security procedures are flouted in such brazen ways. Berger has been cleared of wrongdoing. There is nothing missing, there was no breech of security and there was nothing that could have aided our enemies anyway. It was obsolete intel from the Clinton administration- not that there was any real chance of enemies getting a hold of it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/93 "2004-08-11T14:13:36Z")
> [@Mr Moto](#): > > disclosure becomes very possible when security procedures are flouted in such brazen ways. How brazenly where they floated? Was what Berger did the national security equivalent of a parking ticket or vehicular homicide? All the information we have on the case stems from [Justice department leaks about an ongoing criminal investigation](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/07/politics/07berger.html), in violation of longstanding policy. Given the obvious political motives behind _those_ leaks, and the accompanying wild speculation, the whole Berger story needs to be taken with a giant grain of salt. Let the wheels of justice, such as they are under Ashcroft, turn, and the truth of the matter will out. What do you think the chances are of Justice looking into who outed Mr. Khan? I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/94 "2004-08-11T14:35:59Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And here you’re just trying to excuse what Berger did. Well then let’s you and I discuss it. I think tha Mr. Berger fucked up and knowingly did wrong. So let’s just take the whole issue of ‘trying to excuse what Berger did’ off the table for our discussion. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Never mind that disclosure of the documents he removed from positive control could have aided our enemies greatly. And disclosure becomes very possible when security procedures are flouted in such brazen ways. It seems to me that the main differences between these two situations are that in Mr. Berger’s case, there’s no evidence that Mr. Berger had the intent of leaking classified info (nor is there evidence that classified info was leaked) and that in the Khan case classified info was _intentionally_ leaked. This leak _did_ provide aid to the enemy. The two are only tangentially related. What happened with Mr. Berger was a fuck-up of some schmuck who felt he was too special to have to abide by our security protocols. What hapened with Mr. Khan was an intentional disclosure of classified national security information that provided aid to the enemy. I hope that you can see why these two instances don’t bear comparison. If Mr. Berger had taken current classified information and published it in a newspaper that is read world-wide, then the comparisons would be more apt. As it is, they are qualitatively different events. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/95 "2004-08-11T14:39:49Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Berger has been cleared of wrongdoing. There is nothing missing, there was no breech of security and there was nothing that could have aided our enemies anyway. It was obsolete intel from the Clinton administration- not that there was any real chance of enemies getting a hold of it anyway. You’re flat wrong. Berger is still the target of both a federal criminal investigation and a House probe into the matter. There are signals that there won’t be a preosecution. However, it is equally clear that Berger won’t ever hold a security clearance again. I’d hardly call that being “cleared of wrongdoing”. [This story from NPR’s Morning Edition, a couple of days ago, clarifies matters nicely.](http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3840079) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/96 "2004-08-11T14:57:07Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > In the Khan case classified info was _intentionally_ leaked. This leak _did_ provide aid to the enemy. Has anyone leaked who it was that outed Khan yet? Condoleezza herself seems a likely suspect with her daft defense of the blunder this weekend. I’ve not seen anything yet, but with the press in on the secret, it shouldn’t stay secret long. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/97 "2004-08-11T15:09:55Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Has anyone leaked who it was that outed Khan yet? Condoleezza herself seems a likely suspect with her daft defense of the blunder this weekend. I’ve not seen anything yet, but with the press in on the secret, it shouldn’t stay secret long. It’ll be yet another investigation that the WH tries to sit on until after the election season. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/98 "2004-08-11T15:18:40Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > You’re flat wrong. > > Berger is still the target of both a federal criminal investigation and a House probe into the matter. There are signals that there won’t be a preosecution. However, it is equally clear that Berger won’t ever hold a security clearance again. I’d hardly call that being “cleared of wrongdoing”. Investigations that are telegraphing an intent to clear Berger. There may have been some arrogance on Berger’s part about obeying protocols but there was no real harm done. Nothing is missing and nothing was leaked. Nothing was even current. It’s not in the same ballpark as the Khan leak (deliberate and stupid) or the Chalabi fiasco (colossally incompetent) or the Plame leak (not only deliberate but maliciously so). The _tu quoques_ against Berger are weak compared to any of those three things. Berger wasn’t even part of an administration any more, and his sloppiness or rules flauting or whatever did not actually result in any security leaks. All three of the Bushco fuck ups resulted in real damage yet you haven’t started any Pit threads about them or spoken of them with anything like the vehemence that you’ve spoken of Berger. Methinks your partisanship is showing. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/99 "2004-08-11T15:28:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s not in the same ballpark as the Khan leak (deliberate and stupid) or the Chalabi fiasco (colossally incompetent) or the Plame leak (not only deliberate but maliciously so). Don’t forget the Zip Disks with nuclear secrets on them that have gone missing from Los Alamos. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831/100 "2004-08-11T15:44:29Z")
What are you, **Diogenes** , a Maoist now? It’s not enough that I agree, I have to be _vehement_ about it? Sorry, but I just can’t find my little red book anywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushco-outs-our-al-qaeda-infiltrator-incompetent-malevolent-who-gives-a-flip/258831.md?page=6)