# Bush's Honorable Discharge in proper perspective **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852 "2004-02-18T19:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852/41 "2004-02-20T04:32:38Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Check Scylla’s thread in GD, where you will find numerous hints that absence of documents trail must hide very serious offences by Bush during his NG years. When strawman arrives, you answer the door. I don’t think you understood my question. I was responding to this: > [@New Iskander](#): > > One doesn’t steal presidential elections and invade sovereign countries all of a sudden. There must be a pattern of nefarious misdeeds traceable back into Bush’s past. You are implying that anyone has argued that his _current_ evil is evidence that he must have been evil in the _past_. No one has tried to make that admittedly lame extropolation. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852/42 "2004-02-20T05:11:05Z")
We’re dealing with two candidates running who happen to be veterans. I could just as easily say: **"John Kerry’s Honorable Discharge in proper perspective."** It would be equally despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852/43 "2004-02-20T05:19:08Z")
You have a very kind definition of “veteran,” **Mr. Moto** , and we have much more than John Kerry’s discharge papers to show how honorable his service was. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852/44 "2004-02-20T15:03:35Z")
Not to mention the fact that Mr. Kerry hasn’t been holding up his honorable discharge as proof that he didn’t miss duty while a member of the armed forces. The President has been accused of failing to fulfill his responsibilities as a member of the National Guard during 1972 and 1973. He has attempted to answer this speculation by noting he received an honorable discharge. The inference to be drawn from this fact is that he fulfilled all duties he needed to fulfill, or he wouldn’t have been given such a classification. This “defense” is not very convincing for the reason made by the OP, which I do not think attempted to equate the President to a mass murderer, but simply showed just exactly how flimsy the “honorable discharge” defense could get. I personally am not bothered by the potential that Mr. Bush got interested in other things in 1972 and 1973. From what I have read, the National Guard in those years was fairly lax about such things; the dynamics were different in an era when the Guard rarely was involved in actual military endeavors (read, while we had a draft). If there is anything about the situation that is troubling, it is the relatively common response from a politician in which there is first refusal to address the issue, then denial, then grudging release of data regarding the issue, followed eventually by full disclosure of the relevant information. As far as I can tell, one of two responses should be forthcoming: 1. “I fulfilled all my responsibilities, and here is the evidence which supports my assertion, including the statements of people who remember my presence.” 2. “I got involved in other things in 1972 and 1973, and as a result, didn’t put as much time into the Guard in those years as perhaps I should have, but I still did the minimum required and was honorably discharged.” I just hate it when the press and the pundits (not to mention political opponents) end up having to pull teeth to get to the bottom of something so relatively unimportant in the larger scheme of things (do you really think the people of Iraq are worried about whether the man who decided to militarily assault their country showed up for a medical exam in 1972?). And lest anyone think that this makes me anti-Bush, I’d like to point out that there are plenty of Democrats who have fallen prey to the same sort of duck and hide approach to easily discoverable, but relatively unimportant before the effort to duck and hide, issues. Including an impeached president. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852/45 "2004-02-20T18:33:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t think you understood my question. > > You are implying that anyone has argued that his _current_ evil is evidence that he must have been evil in the _past_. No one has tried to make that admittedly lame extropolation. If you want to be _that_ strict, then no, nobody said exactly what I said. It was my own exaggeration, taking the rhetoric to the next level of absurdity. Also, I can’t quote anyone suggesting that there must be a link between Bush and Satan; that was my own slander, too. Would you say that people who are expressing suspicions that scarcity of documents for Bush NG service might indicate that some serious offences were covered-up, are doing that not because they hate Bush and his actions now, but for the simple love of truth and fair play? Would you say that people are digging 30 years back into Bush past not because they hate Bush and his actions now, but out of impartial urge to perform a public service? No, nobody said “that his _current_ evil is evidence that he must have been evil in the _past_”, verbatim. It went without saying. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852/46 "2004-02-20T18:58:06Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > If you want to be _that_ strict, then no, nobody said exactly what I said. It was my own exaggeration, taking the rhetoric to the next level of absurdity. Also, I can’t quote anyone suggesting that there must be a link between Bush and Satan; that was my own slander, too. > > Would you say that people who are expressing suspicions that scarcity of documents for Bush NG service might indicate that some serious offences were covered-up, are doing that not because they hate Bush and his actions now, but for the simple love of truth and fair play? Would you say that people are digging 30 years back into Bush past not because they hate Bush and his actions now, but out of impartial urge to perform a public service? No, nobody said “that his _current_ evil is evidence that he must have been evil in the _past_”, verbatim. It went without saying. I think Bush’s string pulling and deriliction of duty during Vietnam is relevant now for the following reasons: 1.) It showed a sense of entitlement and a lack of accountability during his youth. He clearly thought the the rules should be different for him than for everybody else. 2.) He supported the practice of conscripting and sending other young men off to die in an immoral war, especially poor and unconnected young men, but he was unwilling to join them and saw no conpunction in using privelege and status to keep himself safely in Texas. 3.) Rather than acknowledging anything now, he has chosen to weasel and lie and prevaricate. 4.) He is currently sending other young men off to die in another immoral war. He lied to them about what they were dying for. He has invited the enemy to kill them, and he struts around in a fake flight suit as if he were one of them. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852/47 "2004-02-20T19:31:50Z")
> [@](#): > > 4.) He is currently sending other young men off to die in another immoral war. He lied to them about what they were dying for. He has invited the enemy to kill them, and he struts around in a fake flight suit as if he were one of them. You should be ashamed of yourself for that slur, **Diogenes** … That flight suit was _real_. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852/48 "2004-02-20T21:45:16Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think Bush’s string pulling and deriliction of duty during Vietnam is relevant now for the following reasons: I’m afraid you are barking up a wrong tree. I already posted what I think about the issue in related Scylla’s thread; to re-cap: this issue is real, not some hysterics about sacred international law and missing WMD; this one is a clear negative for Bush so far; his opponents are right to play it for all it’s worth against him. My advice: play it well, don’t overdo things and kill it. For example, calling Bush “rich kid who took advantage” makes people think and re-consider, calling Bush a “deserter” may be good self-promotion, but kills the issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-honorable-discharge-in-proper-perspective/229852.md?page=2)