# Bush's plan is failing, we need a new crew **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967 "2004-06-06T16:50:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/61 "2004-06-10T03:31:37Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > The story concerns the fact that State is correcting its method of tallying such incidents because of what seems to be a legitimate claim that they have been under counting. I say the claim seems legitimate because State is changing their methods in response to it. There was a story about this on NPR. They stopped counting in November. But State is quite offended by the claim that this was done for political reasons. With the revised numbers, the number of terrorists incidents went up instead of going down. If they really think the insurgents in Iraq are terrorists, the incidents should go way, way up in 2004. Well, with any luck there will be new leadership when the counting is done. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/62 "2004-06-10T04:00:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > … State is quite offended by the claim that this was done for political reasons. The reason for the under count is immaterial as far as I’m concerned. They were apparently undercounting and the administration was using it to show their methods are working. The question of whether or not to call guerillas “terrorists” is sticky. If civilians, like those who support the US by accepting office from Bremer, are targeted I suppose they should be scored as terror attacks. Roadside bombs used against military convoys being called terror would mean we need to go back and redefine the operations of French, Dutch, Norwegian and all other ‘resistance’ groups. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/63 "2004-06-10T08:26:28Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > OK except that the administration has used the State Department reports on the incidence of terrorist attacks to claim success according to a story in the _Los Angeles Times_ of today, 9 June. Right. That was exactly my point. How is it fair to use statistics to claim _success_ but then _decry_ the use of statistics when it shows failure? I can think of nothing more hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/64 "2004-06-10T12:58:40Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > OK except that the administration has used the State Department reports on the incidence of terrorist attacks to claim success according to a story in the _Los Angeles Times_ of today, 9 June. > > I would give the cite but the damned site still won’t let me in. > [@](#): > > [U.S. Will Revise Data on Terror > By Josh Meyer, Times Staff Writer > June 9, 2004](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-fg-terror9_jun09,1,7491026.story?coll=la-home-headlines) > > WASHINGTON — The State Department is scrambling to revise its annual report on global terrorism to acknowledge that it understated the number of deadly attacks in 2003, amid charges that the document is inaccurate and was politically manipulated by the Bush administration. > > When the most recent “Patterns of Global Terrorism” report was issued April 29, senior Bush administration officials immediately hailed it as objective proof that they were winning the war on terrorism. The report is considered the authoritative yardstick of the prevalence of terrorist activity around the world. > > “Indeed, you will find in these pages clear evidence that we are prevailing in the fight” against global terrorism, Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage said during a celebratory rollout of the report. > > But on Tuesday, State Department officials said they underreported the number of terrorist attacks in the tally for 2003, and added that they expected to release an updated version soon. > > Several U.S. officials and terrorism experts familiar with that revision effort said the new report will show that the number of significant terrorist incidents increased last year, perhaps to its highest level in 20 years. – ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/65 "2004-06-10T15:56:22Z")
Of course, there is more to the GW failure than just the counting of the incidence of terrorist incidents. There is the apparent failure of anyone in the administration to understand anything about Iraq or what would be needed in the ultimate war aim of ‘bringing democracy to the Middle East’ which was finally arrived at after all the others turned out to be a bunch of crap. A story in the _Los Angeles Times_ this morning (10 June) deals with a mortar[attack in Fallouja.](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/complete/la-fg-fallouja10jun10,1,5202995.story?coll=la-iraq-complete) The story also mentions with another pipeline blowup and the infighting between factions of the body politic (ethinc?) in Iraq. For example there is this: _“A political rift between ethnic factions in the interim government deepened Wednesday as a key Kurdish official threatened to boycott his Cabinet post until his duties were more fully defined.”_ Earlier in this thread a poster mentioned my use of the word ‘plan’ in the title as being a pipedream since there wasn’t any plan. That complaint seems to be true. There was an aim - to bring democracy. However, the administration apparently has no one who had any conception of the complexity of the Iraqi tribal society and the steps needed to achieve the aim, or the proper sequence of those steps, or any reasonable timetable for accomplishing the sequence or much of anything else. And if there were any Iraq experts in State or DOD they must not have been consulted. It was a typical GW fuckup, like his oil company ventures from which I suppose he was rescued by his father’s friends buying him out. Now I see that after having told the rest of the world to kiss off he is begging for more outside help in Iraq. In other words, “Please, somebody, anybody, help!” I just can’t understand how anyone can support such an incompetent approach to such a vatal question as starting a war. And if anyone says how wonderful it will be when democracy is established in the Middle East and we can all live happily ever after I’m going to puke. “Stay the course” indeed. There never was any clearly outlined course. And, of course to top it all off. The Iraq mess takes resources and attention away from world-wide terrorism which was the stated objective in the first place. For the life of me, I can’t see why the election should even be close. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/66 "2004-06-10T16:06:06Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Right. That was exactly my point. How is it fair to use statistics to claim _success_ but then _decry_ the use of statistics when it shows failure? I can think of nothing more hypocritical. Well, I can think of a few things more hypocritical. But I agree that such actions would be hypocritical. Can you point out to me anyone who has done this? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/67 "2004-06-10T18:03:29Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Well, I can think of a few things more hypocritical. But I agree that such actions would be hypocritical. Can you point out to me anyone who has done this? Point taken, pervert. The way the search engine is working these days, it’d be a pretty tall order for me to find cites for one particular doper who both lauded the supposed _decrease_ in terrorism when Bush was trumpeting it, AND decried the use of statistics when it appeared damning for Bush. If I had a week free to do research, maybe. But I certainly remember several SDMB pundits bringing up the subject as purported proof that the War on Terror was working. And I don’t remember any of the pro-Bush camp _objecting_ to the use of statistics when they thought it was in their favor. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/68 "2004-06-10T18:05:09Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Well, I can think of a few things more hypocritical. Oh, and by the way - are you being this frickin’ literal _just_ to be annoying? ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/69 "2004-06-10T19:05:46Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Oh, and by the way - are you being this frickin’ literal _just_ to be annoying? Sorry, I left off the smiley. But since you ask, were you being so hyperbolic just to be annoying? 😉 > [@](#): > > But I certainly remember several SDMB pundits bringing up the subject as purported proof that the War on Terror was working. And I don’t remember any of the pro-Bush camp objecting to the use of statistics when they thought it was in their favor. Fair enough. As I have said, any use of those statistics would be premature at best in claiming the war was over. Certainly they could be used to claim that things were better (when they appeard to show that) just as they could be used to show that things are worse now. The only point I keep harping on is that they did not then, nor do they now show that “Bush’s plan is failing, we need a new crew”. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/70 "2004-06-10T19:12:41Z")
> [@pervert](#): > > Sorry, I left off the smiley. But since you ask, were you being so hyperbolic just to be annoying? 😉 Sorry it bothered you so much. I thought it was a pretty normal amount of hyperbole. 😕 I’ll try to write all future posts in a monotone: [robot voice] It…is…logically…inconsistent…to…cite…statistics…in…ones…favor…and…also…decry…statistics…when…not…in…ones…favor.[/robot voice] 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967/71 "2004-06-10T19:20:16Z")
Thank you. That was quite funny. I am imagining the voice from the Lost in Space robot. Perhaps we could invoke him from now on as a hyperbole detector. We could certainly use on these days. [robot voice] Danger SMDB! Danger SDMB! My sensors detect an unusually high concentration of hyperbole and invective arguments. Warning! [/robot voice]😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-plan-is-failing-we-need-a-new-crew/248967.md?page=3)