# Bush's "The Rich Don't Pay Taxes" Meme **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224 "2004-08-10T17:32:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/1 "2004-08-10T17:32:25Z")
As best as I can tell, the idea is to scare voters away from Kerry by selling Kerry’s proposals to repeal the Bush tax cuts for those earning over $200K/yr as a hopeless venture that will end up as a tax hike on the middle class, since the rich just figure out how to weasel out of all their taxes anyway. And I think it ultimately goes beyond that - to attempt to brainwash the American people to think there’s no point in taxing the rich, period. After all, his ‘base’ is the haves and have-mores, and he’s got to protect them. Anyhow, here’s the quotes, and the links, straight from [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov): [Yesterday (August 9), Annandale, VA:](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040809-3.html) > [@](#): > > Just remember, when you’re talking about, oh, we’re just going to run up the taxes on a certain number of people – first of all, real rich people figure out how to dodge taxes. (Laughter.) And the small business owners end up paying a lot of the burden of this taxation. [August 5, Columbus, Ohio:](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040805-8.html) > [@](#): > > you know how the tax code works. When they say, “tax the rich,” those are the folks who have got the accountants to see to it they don’t pay tax, so guess who gets stuck with the bill? You’re going to get stuck with the bill. The worst thing for job creation is to be running up the taxes on the working people of this country. And we’re not going to let him have a chance to do so. [July 31, Canton, Ohio:](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/07/20040731-2.html) > [@](#): > > He said he’s only going to raise the tax on the so-called rich. But you know how the rich is, they’ve got accountants. That means you pay. That means your small business pays. It means the farmers and ranchers pay. [July 14, Fond Du Lac, WI](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/07/20040714-11.html) > [@](#): > > People need to be aware of this talk out of Washington, D.C. that says, oh, don’t worry, we’re just going to tax the rich. That’s not the way it works in the tax code. The big rich dodge taxes, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/2 "2004-08-10T17:43:04Z")
If that’s the case why did he cut their taxes in the first place? _blinks innocently_ ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/3 "2004-08-10T17:46:18Z")
Where can I find one of these so called “accountants” so that I may stop paying taxes? -lv ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/4 "2004-08-10T17:49:38Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > If that’s the case why did he cut their taxes in the first place? > > _blinks innocently_ Yeah, well that would be expecting him to make _factual_ sense, as opposed to _political_ sense. What do you want from the President of the United States, elementary logical and reasoning abilities? That’s the thing about you liberals - you expect the President to be an expert on _everything!_ Why, next you’ll be expecting him to be able to do basic _arithmetic!!_ Sheez. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/5 "2004-08-10T17:51:28Z")
> [@LordVor](#): > > Where can I find one of these so called “accountants” so that I may stop paying taxes? > > -lv Are you rich? No? Sorry. H&R Block or TurboTax for you, and expect to pay up like a _good_ prole. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/6 "2004-08-10T18:04:12Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > If that’s the case why did he cut their taxes in the first place? > > _blinks innocently_ It’s really not THAT silly. Do you doubt that “the rich” seek tax shelters and that the shelters would be less appealing if the tax rates were lower? Of course that begs that question, why not get rid of the tax shelters in the first place…? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/7 "2004-08-10T18:33:35Z")
Well, of course I know that. I was by way of poking a hole in it. And I, for one, have an accountant who does my taxes and offers advice. We haven’t broken the law but we’ve skated near the edge from time to time. OTOH, John, do you really think that lowering taxes makes shelters less desirable? Or does it just provide incentive for keeping the money there for even greater savings? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/8 "2004-08-10T19:53:15Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > OTOH, John, do you really think that lowering taxes makes shelters less desirable? Or does it just provide incentive for keeping the money there for even greater savings? I’m not sure I understand your question. As I’m sure you know, a lot of loopholes don’t eliminate taxes, they just reduce them. As the tax rates get lower, these loopholes offer less savings. Where would “greater savings” come from? I’d be in favor of eliminated all deductions and loopholes, except one standard deduction used as a floor, below which income is not taxed. At that point, one could have a more intelligent discussion about tax rates. As it is, people of similar incomes can pay vastly different taxes, depending on how creative they want to get with loopholes. I do a LOT of it myself, but would gladly give up that advantage for a fairer, straightforward tax structure. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/9 "2004-08-10T20:11:51Z")
Just when I thought RT could not amaze me any more, he suddenly announces that he hadn’t known that very wealthy people use high-end accounting firms to escape paying as much tax as possible. He also apparently hadn’t known that the tax increases promised by Kerry are on capital growth, not on trusts like the Heinz Family Philanthropies or the Tides Foundation, where wealthy people can hold their money and not be taxed until they spend it. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/10 "2004-08-10T20:19:53Z")
Ah, come on, **Lib** , **RT** _does_ know that. He’s just saying that it’s disingenuous for Bush to use the practice as an excuse not to tax the rich. Bush is saying, in effect, “I gave the rich a tax cut, so now they keep more of their money! My opponent wants to raise taxes on the rich, but it doesn’t matter, because they don’t pay taxes anyway!” If they weren’t paying taxes before, what was the point of the tax cut? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/11 "2004-08-10T20:23:50Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m not sure I understand your question. As I’m sure you know, a lot of loopholes don’t eliminate taxes, they just reduce them. As the tax rates get lower, these loopholes offer less savings. Where would “greater savings” come from? All I’m saying here is that if one cuts taxes I’m not clear that it would reduce the reliance on tax shelters. I think the most obvious outcome of such cuts would be ‘Great! Now I can still use my shelters and save even more! Woot!’. That’s how I’d do it, anyway. On your basic scheme hey, I’m all for simplfying the tax code. But good luck getting that through congress. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/12 "2004-08-10T20:39:11Z")
**JC** , I’ve got to agree with **John Mace** : in general, lower rates make tax shelters less attractive, because there’s less to be saved by sheltering the income, and so the risk and general bother involved in a tax shelter becomes less attractive compared to normal, everyday (unsheltered) investments. [major hijack of my own thread] And I too am in favor of stripping the bells and whistles off the tax structure. Two examples that appall me, even though there’s a decent chance that I might benefit from one of them in the not-too-distant future: One is the SUV deduction: if you have your own business, and you buy an SUV whose weight is \>6000 lbs., and you use it more for business than personal use, you get to deduct the entire cost of the vehicle, in the year you buy it. Why? I dunno. Another is the adoption deduction: adopt a child, and you can claim a credit - not even a deduction, but a credit, a full refund from Uncle Sam - for $10K of adoption expenses. I don’t know why this one, either. I could at least semi-understand the adoption credit, if we were talking about American babies that were in the hard-to-adopt category - over 3 years old, substantial handicaps and other problems, stuff like that - because it’s possible to divine a government interest in ensuring that children are raised in stable environments - families - rather than being passed from foster home to foster home. But if you and your spouse adopt a healthy infant from Ukraine, you’re just as eligible for the credit as if you adopt a mixed-race, mentally handicapped, sexually abused 8 year old from Chicago. So even if you assume that using the tax code to further social goals of one sort or another is a reasonable thing, it’s _still_ fucked up. And once these things are in the tax code, it’s merry hell to get them out again. Each tax break accumulates a constituency, which is ready to swing into action at the first hint of repeal. Even if time has passed, the world has changed, and whatever justification the tax break may have had, is now ancient history. So yeah, put me down in the ‘favors massive simplification of the tax code’ column. [/major hijack of my own thread] But that’s really neither here nor there, as far as the thread is concerned. The fact still stands that you can raise rates on the higher brackets, and it will result in more tax revenue for the government from the rich. You can also undo cuts in taxes that overwhelmingly affect the rich. This can be done; Clinton did it. Anyway, [a little tidbit from USA Today](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-08-09-ask-bush_x.htm): > [@](#): > > When President Bush picks up a microphone, bounds onto a stage and engages his cheering audience in a rambling discussion of topics from Iraq to the economy, it comes off as relaxed, informal and largely spontaneous. . . . > > "But these ‘Ask President Bush’ campaign forums, the eighth of which was held at Northern Virginia Community College here Monday, leave little to chance. > > "The national Bush campaign staff works through a local Republican office to assemble an audience of 1,000 to 2,500 people, depending on the site. . . . > > "Depending on the message Bush wants to put across, the local office also lines up some carefully chosen locals to take the stage with him and explain how Bush’s policies are helping them afford college, buy a home, save money on health insurance or expand a business. They are given ‘talking points’ ahead of time. . . . > > "After Bush chats with those people, he asks for questions from the audience. The ones he gets are usually soft and friendly, raising suspicions that they have been arranged in advance. Campaign officials insist they have not. . . . > > “Two more ‘Ask President Bush’ forums will be held this week: today in Niceville, Fla., and Wednesday in Albuquerque.” I mention this here because the “Ask President Bush” fora seem to be his favorite venue for retelling the meme I’ve described here. I’m hoping to add a coupla for-instances of his using it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/13 "2004-08-10T20:58:03Z")
> [@Lib the Deliberately Obtuse](#): > > Just when I thought RT could not amaze me any more, he suddenly announces that he hadn’t known that very wealthy people use high-end accounting firms to escape paying as much tax as possible. What **Duke** said. Please also note your own phrase: “to escape paying **as much tax as possible**.” Not “to escape paying **any tax** ” but ‘as much as possible’. The rich pay taxes, and it’s possible to raise taxes on the rich. Bill Clinton did it, and George W. Bush undid it. (According to Krugman, $270B of this year’s ~$445B deficit is attributable to the Bush tax cuts.) Seems to follow that Kerry could un-undo it. > [@](#): > > He also apparently hadn’t known that the tax increases promised by Kerry are on capital growth Cite? > [@](#): > > not on trusts like the Heinz Family Philanthropies or the Tides Foundation, where wealthy people can hold \*\*their \*\* money and not be taxed until they spend it. The bolded word is wrong, hence this bit of idiocy has no relevance to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/14 "2004-08-10T21:03:42Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > He also apparently hadn’t known that the tax increases promised by Kerry are on capital growth, not on trusts like the Heinz Family Philanthropies or the Tides Foundation, where wealthy people can hold their money and not be taxed until they spend it. Will President Kerry be paying income tax on his [$400,000.00/year annual salary](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/3/102.html)? I looked, but I couldn’t find the answer anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/15 "2004-08-10T21:03:47Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Ah, come on, **Lib** , **RT** _does_ know that. He’s just saying that it’s disingenuous for Bush to use the practice as an excuse not to tax the rich. > > Bush is saying, in effect, “I gave the rich a tax cut, so now they keep more of their money! My opponent wants to raise taxes on the rich, but it doesn’t matter, because they don’t pay taxes anyway!” If they weren’t paying taxes before, what was the point of the tax cut? I just finished explaining that. They were paying taxes on captial growth. So what they did was shove their money into trusts and “charities” (I use quotes because some of them are 401c3 political organizations that benefit the contributors, who are owed favors by the people they help elect). That way, the didn’t have to pay any taxes until the money was actually spent. Meanwhile, disincentivizing capital growth is a plan too moronic for words. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/16 "2004-08-10T21:09:18Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Will President Kerry be paying income tax on his [$400,000.00/year annual salary](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/3/102.html)? I looked, but I couldn’t find the answer anywhere. Probably, but he isn’t worried about that chump change. You can rest assured that he and his wife will be filing separately as always, partly so that she can continue to “disclose” such horseshit as earning only $5 million a year, and partly so that they can shelter as much of her money as possible. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/17 "2004-08-10T21:29:51Z")
You sound a bit disparaging there, **Lib**. What’s the problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/18 "2004-08-10T21:34:36Z")
> [@RT](#): > > Originally Posted by Lib the Deliberately Obtuse Are you really that desperate? > [@](#): > > Please also note your own phrase: “to escape paying as much tax as possible.” Not “to escape paying any tax” but ‘as much as possible’. Are you honestly that daft? What difference does it make to the rich that they fly in depreciated corporate private jets as opposed to private jets on which they pay property tax? They don’t put this stuff in their own personal names. These things are common knowlege. If you’re filthy rich and want to avoid paying taxes, you form corporations, make yourself Chairman and CEO, avail yourself of all the corporate perks like limousines, jets, and holidays in exotic places while carefully and deliberately creating as much “loss” (in the form of expense) as you can without going broke or cooking the books illegally. Even the not-so-filthy rich do creative things. A mere multi-millionaire, for example, can put a couple of cows in a pasture at the edge of his estate and call his property a “farm”, thereby availing himself of some nifty tax breaks not to mention outright subsidies. > [@](#): > > Cite? Cite for what, that a tax on income is a tax on capital growth? […knocking on your forehead…] Anyone in there? > [@](#): > > The bolded word is wrong, hence this bit of idiocy has no relevance to this discussion. What the…? From the [IRS](http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq16.html): > [@](#): > > A so-called pure trust is an arrangement that purports to create a separate entity without actually altering the taxpayer’s control over the property or business transferred to the pure trust. Generally, the trust issues certificates that represent ownership of the trust. Notice 97-24 addresses certain abusive trust arrangements. Often “pure trusts” are involved in those arrangements. The pure trust may be treated as a sham for federal tax purposes depending on the trust terms and its actual operation. Therefore, the taxpayer who transfers property or a business to the trust must report all the income earned by the trust and is liable for the taxes. The transferor may not circumvent the tax system by structuring transactions with the purpose of evading taxes. The trusts scrupulously avoid earning income. Neverthess, the depositors maintain ownership of the capital. If you believe that top accounting and corporate legal firms do not understand intimately how to manipulate these things, you are hopelessly naive. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/19 "2004-08-10T21:36:29Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You sound a bit disparaging there, **Lib**. What’s the problem with that? The problem with what, Andros? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224/20 "2004-08-10T22:29:41Z")
There goes GWB again, who, like his father was born with a silver foot in his mouth. Here is why Bush’s comments cited in the OP are as stupid and vulgar as they come. 1. “Those rich people.” Waitasec, GWB himself is one of them. He should be saying, “We can dodge them.” So what’s his own experience? Does he dodge taxes as much as possible? How? If he doesn’t, then I guess there is a certain percentage of rich folk who don’t. What are the numbers? I’m not accusing Bush here of dodging taxes. I’m accusing him of failing to connect the dots, which failure is a regular thing for him. I’m 100% confident that he has never played with the numbers on Excel to see what options are available, what is practical and what is not. For GWB, a sound byte is always good enough. 1. “They just dodge taxes.” As during the 7 Pet Goat Minutes, GWB doesn’t see himself in a position actually to _change_ things for the better in the country. Could the President make an effort to change the tax code so that it is actually fair and simple? Nah. Can’t remember Uncle Dick ever putting that on my to-do list. GWB: what an idiot, what a complete tool. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-the-rich-dont-pay-taxes-meme/259224.md?page=2)