# Bush's waffles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526 "2004-03-10T18:54:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/1 "2004-03-10T18:54:17Z")
The current Republican meme of the week is that people shouldn’t vote for John Kerry because he flip-flops (“waffles”) on the issues. In that vein, I got pointed to [this list](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/3/7/213753/1954) of George W. Bush’s own waffles from the last four years: > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he’s for it.[/li][li]Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he’s for it.[/li][li]Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he’s for it.[/li][li]Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he’s for it.[/li][li]Bush is against nation building; then he’s for it.[/li][li]Bush is against deficits; then he’s for them.[/li][li]Bush is for free trade; then he’s for tariffs on steel; then he’s against them again.[/li][li]Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a “road map” and a Palestinian State.[/li][li]Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.[/li][li]Bush first says he’ll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn’t.[/li][li]Bush first says that ‘help is on the way’ to the military … then he cuts benefits[/li][li]Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don’t know where he is. I have no idea and I really don’t care. [/li][/ul] (There’s more at the site; I wasn’t sure if posting the entire list violated the SDMB’s policy on excessive quoting) So, would the resident Bush supporters care to poke some holes in this list? Or is this simply another case of the Republicans throwing out inaccurate and hypocritical accusations against Kerry (as usual)? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/2 "2004-03-10T19:05:08Z")
Is Kos great or what? We can add to that list Bush’s evident [change of heart](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/election/2000debates/1stdebate5.html) on [Lincoln Bedroom sleepovers](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040310/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_sleepovers_3). ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/3 "2004-03-10T19:19:55Z")
I’m not trying to support Bush here, but I’d be curious to see those OBL quotes in context. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/4 "2004-03-10T19:47:29Z")
…covered in a warm, syrupy coating of lies and sprinkled with powdery hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/5 "2004-03-10T19:49:25Z")
I think Bush is better off with waffles than with pretzels. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/6 "2004-03-10T20:03:43Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > So, would the resident Bush supporters care to poke some holes in this list? Or is this simply another case of the Republicans throwing out **inaccurate** and hypocritical accusations against Kerry (as usual)? My bolding. False dichotomy. Bush can waffle from sunup till sundown and it has no bearing on the accuracy or inaccuracy of the claims made against Kerry. The only way to resolve this would be a complete listing of every statement made by both politicians to determine who made the larger number of reversals. Enjoy that endeavor… The real question, is which scenario will play better in the field of public opinion. I submit that most people have a pretty clear idea in their mind of what Bush stands for. But not so with Kerry. It will be much easier for the Republicans to use this against Kerry, who has yet to define himself in the voters’ psyche. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/7 "2004-03-10T20:44:23Z")
A comparison of the two candidates, which is what a campaign is all about even in the “field of public opinion”, can hardly be a false dichotomy. Yes, it’s time for the incumbent to define his challenger before he can define himself (the lesson of the Dukakis campaign). But that only works for an incumbent who’s already seen as a safe, or at least good enough, default choice. One who already has negative approval ratings, and at a time when “the country is on the wrong track” and such is a strong majority reply in the polls, cannot count on that, though. The default choice right now, for voters doing comparison shopping, might well be Kerry, mightn’t he? [Robert Kuttner explores it further:](http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/10/mud_tossed_at_kerry_might_stick_to_bush/) > [@](#): > > On Monday, speaking at a fund-raiser in Houston, the president tried out what will doubtless be a Republican mantra: “Senator Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, for NAFTA, for No Child Left Behind, and for the use of force in Iraq. Now he opposes the Patriot Act, NAFTA, the No Child Left Behind Act, and the liberation of Iraq. My opponent clearly has strong convictions – they just don’t last very long.” > > There are two very persuasive rejoinders. For starters, most senators and congressmen also voted for No Child Left Behind and for force in Iraq, but quickly turned into critics because Bush pulled a bait-and-switch. > > Similarly, most legislators were stampeded into supporting the so-called Patriot Act, which increases permissible spying on Americans, and now have regrets. Today, the Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Sensenbrenner, says the Patriot Act will be extended “over my dead body.” So Kerry is in very good company. > > The second rejoinder is even more potent: Compared with whom? If Kerry occasionally modifies his positions as events change, his inconstancy is pretty mild compared with Bush’s. This, after all, is a president who ran as a “uniter, not a divider,” as a “compassionate conservative,” and as a steward of budgetary prudence. The rest is history, and the history does not flatter the president. > > Indeed, this is not an incumbent who should welcome close comparisons. Want to talk about Kerry’s military record? Oops. Want to discuss No Child Left Behind, where Bush’s failure to provide funding combined with impossible bureaucratic requirements has stoked a rebellion of Republican governors? Maybe you don’t. > > Want to make fun of Kerry as a preppy rich kid? A group of Bush supporters created an ad ridiculing Kerry’s wealth, taunting him as an improbable advocate for the poor. But again, compared to whom? That approach only works against a challenger who won’t, or can’t effectively, fight back. Who thinks that of Kerry? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/8 "2004-03-10T21:16:27Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I submit that most people have a pretty clear idea in their mind of what Bush stands for. And therein lies Bush’s problem. Four years ago, Bush was able to fool a lot of middle-of-the-road types into believing he was a responsible, moderate Republican. Now they know that’s a load of bullcrap, and that Bush is an extremist who will fight to give the GOP base almost everything it wants, and who has little interest in actually compromising with Dems on anything. He claimed there wasn’t going to be the sort of partisan warfare under him that there was under Clinton, and he was right: he’s escalated it far beyond Clintonian levels. He was going to be a uniter, not a divider - but aside from the Democratic base :D, he hasn’t united much of anything. He’s a corporate toady whose answer to all budgetary situations is to cut taxes on the rich; whose answer to all environmental problems is to dig, drill, cut down trees, and ease pollution regs; whose answer to all criticisms of our irrelevant war in Iraq is “9/11”; and whose answer to practically everything is to find a nice photo op. (Turkey, anyone?) The citizens of this country are slowly waking up to how often Bush has lied to and bamboozled them, and how much he has done for his rich friends while doing nothing for them. It’s already too late for God, guns, and gays to save him (though maybe Diebold still can); the unseriousness of running on these issues when we’ve got a mess in Iraq, the biggest deficits of my lifetime, far too many Americans out of work, and the spectre of nuclear proliferation like we’ve never seen hovering in the background, as we play kissy-face with the Pakistanis behind it. > [@](#): > > It will be much easier for the Republicans to use this against Kerry, who has yet to define himself in the voters’ psyche. Maybe, but we’ve got a **big** head start in doing it to Bush - or, rather, pointing out where Bush has already been doing it to himself. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/9 "2004-03-10T21:20:35Z")
[Bush, December 2002](http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2004_archives/000017.html): > [@](#): > > The Price of Loyalty: p. 305: [Karen] Hughes… stopped the proceedings. “But there is uncertainty in this economy,” she said… “Real uncertainty that this won’t solve.”… > > Bush stopped in midstride and looked hard at Hughes. He was silent for a moment. “The economic uncertainty is because of SEC overreach,” he said pointedly… O’Neill couldn’t beleive what he was hearing–SEC overreach? No wonder the White House had backed off from… medicine for crooked executives… ceded the corporate governance debate to Congress. How, though, could the President believe the largely overwhelmed SEC had any significant effect on the vast U.S. economy? [Bush, today](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/03/20040310-4.html): > [@](#): > > There were scandals that were in the years in making, shook the energy industry; it affected the telecommunications industry; it hurt the accounting profession, and other key sectors of our economy. A lot of innocent workers and investors lost their jobs and their savings. > > Those scandals hurt. But we acted, and we passed the strongest corporate reforms since Franklin Roosevelt held the office that I’m honored to hold. Federal prosecutors are holding corporate executives to account. We have made it clear, we will not tolerate dishonesty in the boardrooms of America. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/10 "2004-03-10T21:40:55Z")
And this one: he loved each of his tax cuts when it was passed. Each of them included sunset provisions in order to squeeze more stuff in. He was A-OK on that. Now he’s going around, making speeches as if those sunsets were a dirty trick that someone pulled on him. I’ll take flip-flops for $1 trillion, Alex. ---
**Author:** ![Rillian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bcef8e/32.png) [@Rillian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rillian)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/11 "2004-03-11T02:14:04Z")
Sean Hannity made the suggestion today that the Bush campaign should produce a commercial of Kerry debating Kerry - illustrating the supposed “flip-flops.” Apparently Sean wasn’t aware the the Daily Show had already done this - but with Governor Bush and President Bush as the debators. Go to [http://www.comedycentral.com/tv\_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/videos\_corr.jhtml?startIndex=13&p=stewart](http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/videos_corr.jhtml?startIndex=13&p=stewart) and click on the “Bush vs. Bush” link. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/12 "2004-03-11T03:14:29Z")
Bush Waffles: You order one, but what you get won’t be what you ordered. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/13 "2004-03-11T03:30:44Z")
Heheheh, I see the statue of limitations has expired. Once upon a time, the ‘loyal’ opposition would pounce on our dear departed comrade **December** for posting a OP based on a blog. Now? How dare we doubt the veracity of a blog, or presume to expect that the OP does a little research and backs up the claims made by the blog! Spew out some crap, and it is up to others to disprove it, eh? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/14 "2004-03-11T03:37:17Z")
Oh, for the love of Cecil! Can’t we just bring **december** back, so we don’t have to listen to any more of this sanctimonious drivel? Just as long as he promises “no more limericks! Ever!”. We’ve suffered enough. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/15 "2004-03-11T03:46:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Those scandals hurt. But we acted… **RTFirefly** , you’ve given me the opening to mention something I just learned about from reading Molly Ivins’ _Bushwhacked_ - Bush was involved in some very Enron-esqe shenanigans with his sham Aloha subsidiary, which served to cook his books quite nicely. [http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/bush\_harken.html](http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/bush_harken.html) Unfortunately, I missed this when it surely must have been plastered all over the liberal media. Perhaps Hannity can actually produce such a debate? I mean, why just talk about it and not actually come through. “I have here, in my hand, a list of all the waffling statements of John Kerry.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/16 "2004-03-11T04:00:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Just as long as he promises “no more limericks! Ever!”. To elucidator’s whims we mustn’t cater For the rhymes, which december was creator, were fun filled and wholesome, (though awkward and gruesome) compared to his deeds as debater. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/17 "2004-03-11T04:11:11Z")
Drag him out and shoot him. I’ll swear out the warrant later. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/18 "2004-03-11T04:13:12Z")
> [@](#): > > False dichotomy. Bush can waffle from sunup till sundown and it has no bearing on the accuracy or inaccuracy of the claims made against Kerry. Sorry Mace, but you’ve quite missed the point. The point is that it’s possible to construct such a list through a superficial reading of ANY politician’s public career (and easier for someone who’s been working for 19 years as a Senator than 4 as a President/candidate) to fit the spin-label of the day. Are the flip-flop claims against Bush accurate? I’m sure Bush people have good explanations for them. Are the claims against Kerry accurate? The Kerry people have defenses for each of them. But the accuracy of the charges is never what’s discussed: only the label. Same thing happened with Gore: his RNC focus-group tested label was “liar,” an idea that stuck utterly regardless of the accuracy of the charges (most were grossly inaccurate). But of course, one could come up with just as many lies of Bush’s. So why the differential regard? Merely because of the rhetoric, not the substance. Besides, Bush was too busy being called “stupid” to be a “liar.” Now, the rhetoric du jour is that Kerry is a “flip-flopper.” Are there any substance to these charges? Maybe, maybe not. But the people making the charges never discuss the substance of anything in the first place, and the label quickly comes to be applied to examples without even an explanation as to what the lie or the flip-flop is. That’s how political attack rhetoric works. But, I mean, Kerry tried to gut the intelligence budget right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/19 "2004-03-11T04:55:59Z")
**Apos** : Huh??? Your entire post agrees exatly with what I was saying in mine. You completely lost me… And of course the question posed in the OP (emphasizing accuracy, not hypocrosy as I indicated) is a false dichotomy, as plain as day. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/20 "2004-03-11T08:07:53Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > How dare we doubt the veracity of a blog, or presume to expect that the OP does a little research and backs up the claims made by the blog! So, you can’t argue the facts in the OP (Bush’s track record), and are now resorting to the desperate refuge of attacking the source, eh? Bravo, dear **Brutus!** You have learned the Republican lessons of cowardice and misdirection very well! Now all you need is to find a gullible audience to practice your arts on – because, alas, you won’t find it here… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526.md?page=2)