# Bush's waffles **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526 "2004-03-10T18:54:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/41 "2004-03-11T20:42:29Z")
Offers **TBC** a standing ovation. **BLD** , seeing as how you have made no effort to validate your claims made in the OP, **TBC** ’s words are fitting you like a suit (IMHO) ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/42 "2004-03-11T21:02:56Z")
UGH!! Gee, I hope they at least open the door before they toss him out. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/43 "2004-03-11T21:10:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “Bush may have waffled, but the difference is that he also actually did something, - something he can run on.” > > What a perfectly splendid idea! Let’s make the entire campaign about Bush’s record of “things he can run on”. Let’s focus entirely on his firm leadership, and the avalanche of good that has flowed onto a grateful nation! > > Yessiree, Bob! That’s the ticket! Heh, a good debator would have attacked the stronger points in my posts. By the way, the best thing a political candidate can do is run on his more popular actions. I`m not sure why you think that is such a humorous idea....I guess `cause you disagree with most of the things he has done. In the end the voters will decide, and if they re-elect Bush for the job he`s done so far, you will be eating crow. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Broken\_Column](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@The\_Broken\_Column](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Broken_Column)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/44 "2004-03-11T21:23:05Z")
**BLD** I’ll try harder next time. It’s just whenever I see such a horrible post, it boils my blood that there have been what…14 “YEA!!! PRAISE THIS AWESOME POST!” before I got in here to tear up this poot-rag. My main beef with this? First…let’s look at those other points not quoted by the OP. > [@](#): > > Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island. [http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/company/cnn25046.htm](http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/company/cnn25046.htm) Bush is hardly planting the derick himself. > [@](#): > > Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding. Wrong, Bush has increased Education funding in the areas that currently matters most…(we say Bush…CONGRESS…has increased funding), and that is in the funding towards helping parents get their children into good schools or get their children mentors or tutors. > [@](#): > > Bush first says the U.S. won’t negotiate with North Korea. Now he will Bush never said this…the most I ever found was “We will not tollerate North Korea’s research in Nuclear Weapons.” Stupid stupid stupid. > [@](#): > > Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say’s he shouldn’t have. Oh well come on…now who’s picking butt-hairs? I mean good lord…“I will go to Bob Jones University…I don’t want to go there.” Oh lordy…just such a horribly policy switch? That’s as bad as saying you’re against war then voting for war in Iraq…sheesh I’m not even going to bother to verify this as even true or not. It’s rediculous. > [@](#): > > Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote Yeah well when the U.N. Security Council consists of SYRIA…and decides not to deal with the issue, are you going to stick to your guns or change your strategy? > [@](#): > > Bush said the “mission accomplished” banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team. This could have been an honest mistake. “The sailors put it up --” “Uh no sir actually our forward team did.” “-- oh…my bad.” > [@](#): > > Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he’s against it. Oh my…so horrible. I have one thing to point out that is absolutely important. \*\*Bush has never changed his policies once they were inacted, unlike John Kerry who changes his mind after he’s already voted. Bush has always, like anyone, change positions on issues while deciding what to do about the issues. But when he’s done the act…such as Iraq…or Education…or Economy…he sticks to it. You did not see Bush get on and say, “I should never have gone into Iraq…it was a horrible mess…a quagmire…I am sorry we ever did that.” No…he has never said anything like that…and THAT is what Kerry does…and THAT is why Kerry is “flip-flopping” and why THIS thread is full of stinky swamp gas.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/45 "2004-03-11T21:34:37Z")
**The\_Broken\_Column** > [@](#): > > Uhh … HELLO MORON … God damn…shit…I hate anti-Bush morons.[…] Crap on this shit thread. […] you putz! […] you idiots and buffoons […] You idiots can find one piece of dirt on Bush if you needed to back it up with your balls. [Moderator Hat ON] The\_Broken\_Column, that was way, way over the top. This is not the Pit and you may not call posters names here, nor do I wish to see swearing and scatology practically every other sentence. Cool it. NOW. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![sibyl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@sibyl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sibyl)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/46 "2004-03-11T21:49:09Z")
Every single “waffle” Kerry made could just as easily be manipulated to seem perfectly fine using the same techniques the pro-Bush people in this thread have attempted to use on those charges, including the seemingly ever-popular strategy of “oh now thats a big deal \”. The point here is that it is awfully hypocritical to say someone is unfit for office because they have changed their position (or disagreed with the implementation of their position as the case may be) when Bush himself has done it to the same degree at the very least. I’m sure there will be a new meme next week to try and coerce people into disliking Kerry and distract them from evaluating the issues, which Bush seems to be doing his very best to avoid. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/47 "2004-03-11T21:55:44Z")
Bush’s biggest flip-flop has been his revision of justifications for the invasion of Iraq after his WMD scare was exposed as a scam. He has been known to waffle, as all politicians do, but on balance, I think he’s been quite consistent in taking the side of evil on most any given issue. Trying to spin Kerry’s record as inconsistent is really rather lame and reeks of desperation. (and who would want a leader who was an inflexible prick like GWB anyway?) Bush can’t go anywhere near his own record in this campaign and he wants no part of a debate on miltary credibility so he is reduced to mining Kerry’s voting record for “flip-flops.” The same thing could be done to any Senator of any standing of either party. It’s actually quite heartening to me that this is the best Bush can do because I’ve never heard anybody say they gave a shit about a politician changing his mind from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/48 "2004-03-11T22:03:06Z")
> [@sibyl](#): > > The point here is that it is awfully hypocritical to say someone is unfit for office because they have changed their position (or disagreed with the implementation of their position as the case may be) when Bush himself has done it to the same degree at the very least. Has Bush said Kerry is unfit for office because of the alleged flip-flops? One might as well argue that Candidate X claims Candidate Y is unfit of office because he supports position Z. It’s meant to contrast the two, so voters can decide. Now, you can argue about whether the accusation of flip-flopping is true or not, but I’m not aware of the “unfit for office” claim. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/49 "2004-03-11T22:15:19Z")
Actually, I’d say that Kerry is the one making charges of “unfit for office” via his latest comments when he thought the mike was turned off, calling Republicans a “crooked, lying group”. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/50 "2004-03-11T22:25:09Z")
Me, I prefer [Molly Ivans](http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/national/ivins/story/8460861p-9389970c.html) to some blog on the web. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/51 "2004-03-11T22:28:31Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > **BLD** , seeing as how you have made no effort to validate your claims made in the OP, **TBC** ’s words are fitting you like a suit (IMHO) Ok. let’s pick one. > [@](#): > > Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he’s for it. [Here](http://foi.missouri.edu/terrorintelligence/911attack.html) is a pretty decent source… > [@](#): > > President Bush initially opposed the creation of the panel, saying it would distract intelligence agencies in the midst of the war on terrorism. But he reversed his position after congressional investigators unearthed evidence that the FBI and CIA had mishandled clues and warnings of the Sept. 11 plot. I think it is likely that some of the OP’s list can be refuted, some can be verified, and a lot don’t amount to much one way or the other. The point is that Bush’s painting of Kerry as a flip-flopper is hypocritical. In 3 terms in the Senate, anyone is bound to change his mind on some issues. Better someone that can and will change his mind as facts come available than one that discards facts that don’t agree with his agenda, as Bush did regarding WMD. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/52 "2004-03-11T22:32:52Z")
Me, I prefer [Molly Ivans](http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/national/ivins/story/8460861p-9389970c.html) to some blog on the web. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/53 "2004-03-11T22:43:57Z")
[In Anticipation of The Broken Column’s Meltdown Thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4631092#post4631092) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/54 "2004-03-11T22:54:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Me, I prefer Molly Ivans to some blog on the web. People should send Molly money, cases of beer, and other good stuff. Shie is a national treasure in the struggle against the Rightarded. Plus, she doesn’t have a funny accent. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/55 "2004-03-11T23:06:30Z")
> [@The\_Broken\_Column](#): > > Be more specific McCain-Feingold bill. > [@](#): > > This isn’t really the case but whatever floats your boat [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml) > [@](#): > > To what are you specifically referring? Obviously he was for a WMD investigation, he just didn’t see the inspectors as being successful and so used force to implement it. Well, they weren’t being successful because they weren’t finding the weapons he **knew** were there. And, now that we’ve been searching for almost a year, we’ve been way more successful in finding all those weapons, haven’t we? > [@](#): > > You can’t put this into “nation building” context which specifically refers to a time in the 70s and 80s when America was actively involved in establishing dictatorships for economic security and more or less making arms-dealers rich. This was not the context in which Bush claimed to oppose nation-building. It was in the context of making a distinction between Clinton’s approach to foreign policy and what would be his approach. > [@](#): > > Bush is still against deficits, but how are you going to spend on all the necessary defense budgets now? Tax us 70%? Or Deficit? I choose deficit. You wouldn’t have to tax us 70%. The deficit would only be about half the size if his tax cuts weren’t implemented. Of course, running deficits and stimulating the economy in a recession is understandable. But, Bush has created long-term structural deficits, especially if Congress gets rid of the sunset on the tax cuts, as Bush is asking them to do. > [@](#): > > This is also not the whole story, we need massive tariffs if we are going to save our industrial base. Bush recognizes that, Kerry does not. You might want to read up on the [political debate](http://www.quicken.com/investments/news_center/story/?story=NewsStory/dowJones/20040311/ON200403111603001100.var&column=P0DEC). Neither of them says we need “massive tariffs” by the way. That’s enough for now. ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/56 "2004-03-11T23:09:06Z")
> [@](#): > > The\_Broken\_Column > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by rjung > > Bush first says that ‘help is on the way’ to the military … then he cuts benefits > > No he didn’t, why does everyone say this? Military Benefits have not been cut. You want cites? Here’s one: From [Support our troops](http://www.bushpresident2004.com/troops.htm) > [@](#): > > To support the troops, President Bush’s 2004 Budget and the Republican-led Congress has: > > - Cut $14.6 billion from veteran’s benefits over the next ten years. > - Cut $1.5 billion from military housing. U.S. House Representative David Obey attempted to recover $1 billion of this loss by trimming the portion of Bush’s tax cut to Americans earning over $1 million per year by 5%. He failed. > - Cut $200 million from public schools on military bases. > - Denies the much-touted child tax credit to nearly 200,000 low-income military personnel. > - Canceled a modest proposal to increase the benefit to families of soldiers who die on active duty from $6,000 to $12,000. > - Rolled back recent modest increases in monthly imminent-danger pay for soldiers (from $225 to $150) and the family-separation allowance (from $250 to $100) for troops in hostile combat zones. > - Refused to consider military tax relief, which would be a great help to military homeowners and parents deployed to combat zones. > - Passed pay raises for some higher ranks, and capped raises for lower ranks. > - Regarding some of these patriotic measures taken by the Bush Administration and Republicans, U.S. Army newspaper Army Times wrote: “Taken piecemeal, all these corner-cutting moves might be viewed as mere flesh wounds. But even flesh wounds are fatal if you suffer enough of them.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/57 "2004-03-11T23:10:57Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Actually, I’d say that Kerry is the one making charges of “unfit for office” via his latest comments when he thought the mike was turned off, calling Republicans a “crooked, lying group”. Slip of the tongue, Kerry _meant_ to say “major league assholes.” Surely Kerry is deserving of the same linguistic charity that we daily apply to the utterances of the president and his cohort. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/58 "2004-03-11T23:18:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Actually, I’d say that Kerry is the one making charges of “unfit for office” via his latest comments when he thought the mike was turned off, calling Republicans a “crooked, lying group”. He didn’t say “Republicans” he just said “they,” referring (probably) to Rove’s attack machine. He was quite correct in this assessment and even if he was talking about Bush, he was still correct. I don’t think there’s any more question about whether Bush is a liar, is there? As far as charges of “unfit for office,” well what’s wrong with pointing that out if it’s true? Isn’t that the whole point of an election? And it’s not like JFK called a press conference and made an official announcement that “The Bushies are all a bunch of crooked, lying bastards” (even though that would be a truthful announcement), he made an off the record remark to a supporter, just like Bush did when he called Adam Clymer a “major league asshole.” I’m curious, for anyone who wants to make hay out of the Kerry remark; what do you think that Bush and Rove say about the Dems when they’re just sitting around shooting the shit? Do you think they extoll JFK’s war record? Do you think that GeeDubya inquires about the health of Ms. Heinz? Do you think maybe the occasional “asshole” or “bastard” or “lying motherfucker” slips out? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/59 "2004-03-11T23:21:15Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > …linguistic charity that we daily apply to the utterances of the president and his cohort. You need to be more precise. A _cohort_ is a unit of Roman infantry, typically 300-600 men. GeeDubya was accompanied by his _minion_, which need number only 10. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526/60 "2004-03-11T23:24:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > …Do you think maybe the occasional “asshole” or “bastard” or “lying motherfucker” slips out? Only because he’s bored, or Oprah is on, or to make campaign speeches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-waffles/233526.md?page=4)