# Bush's war on therapeutic stem-cell science continues **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751 "2005-05-20T15:54:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/21 "2005-05-20T20:28:46Z")
On the plus side, Massachusetts will soon join California in offer state funding for stem cell research. These measures are not (merely) out of altruistic desire to advance science, nor to give an FU to Bush, but because these states are concerned about losing their biotechnology industry to overseas. Let’s face it folks, this research is going to get done, in Europe and Asia if not America, and any products derived from them will reach these shores. the question is: Who will proft? Americans or the countries that had the foresight to cultivate stem cell research within their borders? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/22 "2005-05-20T20:35:31Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I feel compelled to interrupt this latest Bush bashing to interject a few facts into this discussion. > > First of all, it is a fiction that the Bush administration has banned stem cell research. What it has done is limit federal funding to certain cell lines. Also, adult stem cell research and therapies are wide open, since they raise no moral objections. > > I say adult stem cell therapies, because they actually exist. Over 80 of them are currently being used clinically, with many more in various stages of research. Adult stem cells save lives every single day. > > Embryonic stem cells have yet to be used clinically, and some human tests have produced tumors. > > The moral objections to embryonic stem sells revolves around the destruction of a human embryo to obtain the cells. This is a serious consideration, touching on major questions of medical ethics and public morality, and scientific considerations cannot be held above the law, whatever that law is. > > In any case, I don’t think this qualifies as a stem cell derived from a human embryo, since it was derived only from donated eggs. I would have few moral issues with using them, and I oppose the use of stem cells from actual embryos. It is possible that their use will be permitted after some consideration for this reason. You’re right on all these points, as far as I can tell. But tell me this: what is the problem with using embryos that are only going to be tossed out as bio garbage anyway? No one is going to preserve these embryos or develop them into human beings! They’re unwanted for any reason but this research. Also, I heard a right-to-lifer on tv today whining about how people who object on the grounds that it’s anti life shouldn’t have to spend their tax dollars on something they morally object to. Well, what do they call that clusterfuck in Iraq? A love-in? Jesus. Only good can come from this research. The argument doesn’t hold water as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![cppguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@cppguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cppguy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/23 "2005-05-20T20:59:08Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > On the plus side, Massachusetts will soon join California in offer state funding for stem cell research. Why is that even necessary. The majority of CA voters accepted a $3 Billion bond for stem cell research. AFAIKN that’s more than all of the federal money ever spent on cancer research. Why should the feds spend a cent since CA has ponied up that much money? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/24 "2005-05-20T21:46:39Z")
> [@Podkayne](#): > > I’m glad that many states are taking the initiative to fun stem-cell reserach despite the Administration’s short-sighted fumbling of this historic scientific opportunity. Yeah, there’s no way a private research effort could raise the [$200,000](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=3&u=/nm/20050520/sc_nm/stemcells_hwang_dc) that was used by the Korean group to do their research. > [@](#): > > A groundbreaking study on stem cell research that could one day provide a cure for debilitating illnesses was funded with less than $200,000 a year in largely government grants, a South Korean scientist said on Friday. > > \ > > Hwang said that about $2 million in funds available to him this year is shared by 20 teams conducting various research projects under his supervision. > > “The cost that actually went into stem cell research would be about a tenth of the amount,” he told reporters after arriving home from London. Just needed to get a “the government isn’t always the answer” ding in. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/25 "2005-05-20T21:59:53Z")
You know, if you are opposed to embryonic stem cell research, stick to opposing it on moral grounds. (And then explain why you’re morally opposed to developing therapies from embryos which are currently being thrown away, if you don’t mind.) It’s pathetic to hear you guys trying to argue on the basis of adult stem cell therapies and existing embryonic lines. You sound like creationists trying to use the fossil record and carbon dating evidence to explain why the Earth is only 6000 years old. You know who is really good at science? Scientists. And most of them seem to think that embryonic stem cell research holds enormous untapped potential and that the Bush rules have crippled U.S. research in the field. (I work with biologists and went to school with some biochemists, and they have lots to say about this stuff.) Don’t try to cherry-pick scientific results here and there to support the opposite conclusion the people who generated those results come to. It makes you look stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/26 "2005-05-20T22:01:51Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > You know who is really good at science? Scientists. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/27 "2005-05-20T22:09:50Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Yeah, there’s no way a private research effort could raise the [$200,000](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=585&e=3&u=/nm/20050520/sc_nm/stemcells_hwang_dc) that was used by the Korean group to do their research. > > Just needed to get a “the government isn’t always the answer” ding in. It doesn’t work that way. Private industry simply doesn’t fund the open-ended and long-term pure research needed for a brand-new field like this. Private industry funds short-term projects using the knowledge gained from government-funded pure research, with the express purpose of creating a marketable product in the near future. Moreover, even if any given research project that generates a breakthrough only costs a few hundred grand, the work doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Research groups collaborate and build off the work of others. There’s no simple roadmap that promises technology X if you put in Y dollars. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/28 "2005-05-20T22:16:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Just needed to get a “the government isn’t always the answer” ding in. Of course, those private corporations are all about the greater good of mankind. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/29 "2005-05-20T22:20:11Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > Of course, those private corporations are all about the greater good of mankind. Meh. You think you’re going to get a stem-cell treatment (when and if it’s available) for free? Besides, I live in CA and I’m already paying for it. As for the rest of you folks, if you think we’re giving you guys any of our stem cells, you’re crazy. We might let a few slip across the border to OR or NV, but that’s it. No stem cells for you!! ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/30 "2005-05-20T22:21:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Besides, I live in CA and I’m already paying for it. As for the rest of you folks, if you think we’re giving you guys any of our stem cells, you’re crazy. We might let a few slip across the border to OR or NV, but that’s it. No stem cells for you!! Well, maybe Nevada, but only if we all get free rooms at the Bellagio or something… ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/31 "2005-05-20T22:22:39Z")
yep, no pressure there to provide results positive to their bottom line. Just pure science and pure learning–that’s the corporate American way. They invest millions and get bupkus back–something they’ll sign on for again and again. \ ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/32 "2005-05-20T22:23:17Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > On the plus side, Massachusetts will soon join California in offer state funding for stem cell research. So long as that fuckwad Romny doesn’t cunt it up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/33 "2005-05-20T23:43:51Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > It doesn’t work that way. Private industry simply doesn’t fund the open-ended and long-term pure research needed for a brand-new field like this. Private industry funds short-term projects using the knowledge gained from government-funded pure research, with the express purpose of creating a marketable product in the near future. OK, first let me say that I have absolutely no moral problems with stem cell research. It is disturbing to see the nonscientific apprpoach so many people take towards this subject. But I think you’re creating a bit of false dichotomy. There are other ways to fund this type of research besides gov’t or industry. If this is really such a popular idea in the US, why can’t a private foundation spearhead the effort? My background is in the physical, not the bilological sciennce, but I don’t see why the vast majority of the research can’t be done on non-human primates. Solve the problem with a monkey or even chimpazee model, and surely you’re most of the way there, no? There’s more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. I just don’t like it when everyone throws up their hands just because they can’t get the feds to cough up some $$. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/34 "2005-05-21T00:02:51Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But I think you’re creating a bit of false dichotomy. There are other ways to fund this type of research besides gov’t or industry. If this is really such a popular idea in the US, why can’t a private foundation spearhead the effort? Is it? Being popular doesn’t have much to do with whether science should be done - and I’m not sure it has quite the pull of more glamorous things like breast cancer research. Besides, I don’t see why the government _shouldn’t_ be working to advance the sciences. > [@John Mace](#): > > My background is in the physical, not the bilological sciennce, but I don’t see why the vast majority of the research can’t be done on non-human primates. Solve the problem with a monkey or even chimpazee model, and surely you’re most of the way there, no? I certainly doubt it. If that were the case, it would be being done - perhaps it already has been. Animal models are only useful to a certain degree; I just don’t see scientists ignoring a viable solution like that. I can’t say for sure why you’re wrong, but I think it’s best that scientists determine the scientific process. Which puts me at odds with the Republican Party (slogan: Jesus invented penicillin!) at times. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/35 "2005-05-21T00:50:16Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > OK, first let me say that I have absolutely no moral problems with stem cell research. It is disturbing to see the nonscientific apprpoach so many people take towards this subject. I agree that some of the rhetoric surrounding stem cell research is wishful thinking. It’s not a magic cure-all. At the same time, though, the _potential_ is fairly amazing. My guess is that it could do for medicine what the transistor did for technology. Transistors haven’t turned our life into a paradise, with robot servants and cities on the moon, but they have enabled some technologies which would have been unimaginable sixty years ago. > [@John Mace](#): > > But I think you’re creating a bit of false dichotomy. There are other ways to fund this type of research besides gov’t or industry. If this is really such a popular idea in the US, why can’t a private foundation spearhead the effort? I don’t know. The point is, they aren’t. And even if they did, it would be pretty inefficient. We’ve invested billions of dollars in scientific research, and now have quite a bit of capability already in place in terms of labs and tools. Why not use it? > [@John Mace](#): > > There’s more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. I just don’t like it when everyone throws up their hands just because they can’t get the feds to cough up some $$. The feds are going to pay ten times as much $$ if we have to take the indirect route, and it’s going to take ten times as long. It’s like trying to build a house when the local city council has decreed that nails are immoral. Sure, it’s possible to build a solid structure with wooden pegs and dovetailed joints, but it’s going to take a lot longer and be a lot more expensive. And it’s stupid and unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/36 "2005-05-21T01:51:28Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Well, maybe Nevada, but only if we all get free rooms at the Bellagio or something… I’m in Cali, and I am/was in favor of it. Now about those rooms… ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/37 "2005-05-21T03:06:05Z")
The fact is the neither the potential of adult nor embryonic stem cells have been explored enough to weigh in definitively on which would be preferable, or even feasible, for sundry indications. One would think the entire _point_ of doing research on stem cells would be to figure those sorts of things out. It’s really a rather straightforward approach: Try out your options, see which works best. Bush’s prohibition has effectively destroyed that investigative paradigm in the USA. I can put it no more plainly. Industry simply cannot absorb the financial risks involved in such development of such speculative technologies alone. I can think of no precedent for such a massively expensive endeavor being born by private interests alone. It’s more than naive to think “industry” will somehow pool its collective resources in some munificent collaborative effort to fill the gap left by the lack of public funds of the amounts usually applied to such exciting and promising new fields. It’s a market fundamentalist fantasy, nothing more. Such a consortium would be borderline anticompetitive, quite frankly, and what biotech and pharma does is compete. There are the occasional strategic partnerships, but nothing of this scale. Not even close. So money is a really, really big problem. The other is the chilling effect of not only present regulatory restrictions, but the threat of them in the future. What’s the point of sinking massive amounts of R&D money into something that could be made illegal for all you know? Nobody will outlaw adult stem cells, because nobody could imagine some damn fool bishop comparing adult stem cell research to Mengele’s Holocaust attrocities. In this sort of political climate, what CEO in his right mind is going to stake the future of his outfit on something the “moral majority” thinks is a cardinal sin? Not in this country. Not without support from academia. America will cede its preeminance in biotech if this trend continues. It’s really quite plain. Europe, to a lesser degree, and Asia, to a greater degree, will be the new powerhouses, because if embryonic stem cells can do a tenth of what researchers hope they can do, they will absolutely _revolutionize_ medicine. It’ll be as big as vaccines, or anti-cancer therapies, or organ transplants. For some adult tissues, the use of adult stem cells might be sufficient; but for others, like the heart (check out this brilliant [paper](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15703750&query_hl=1) from Ken Chien’s lab) it’s difficult to harvest more than hundreds or maybe a few thousand of resident stem cells that can differentiate into what you want from the entire organ. You can’t take an entire heart out of a human being to extract a paltry thousand cardiac stem cells when you need millions to repair an infarct. An acceptable biopsy might yield less than ten, if you’re exceedingly lucky. It would require more than twenty doublings to expand such a pool, and threatening changes in culture from what is virtually a clonal expansion are no less a potential problem with adult cells as ebryonal ones. Without active telomerase, senescence is also in issue with such a program, a potential problem embryonal stem cells do not have. Forced expression of telomerase components has been shown to increase the proliferative capacity of stem cells in culture, but in adult cells, active telomerase is a hallmark of cancer, and must be very carefully and completely abrogated before engrafting. Telomerase shuts off naturally when embryonal stem cells differentiate. ES cells can be expanded almost as much as you like while in a virtually totipotent state up until differentiation is triggered, so numbers of cells that can be produced of a wide variety of tissue types is potentially limitless. Hematopoietic and stromal stem cells can’t even come close to this natural versatility, and their potential is proving more limited than was earlier hoped in the hands of some investigators. There’s talk of getting all sorts of cell types out of fat, but those findings, or the potential of that approach, remains controversial. Like I said, it would be great to give any and all promising candiates a fair shot at success. Right now, I’d say the focus on adult stem cells in this country is largely a reflection of the moral quandry, as created by the religious right. There’s no reason why what was done in Korea couldn’t have been done here. People have been talking about the very things they’ve accomplished for years. Why didn’t we do it instead? Well, why do you think? Because nobody thought autologous cell grafts derived from cloned embryos might be an approach of enormous promise? Fuck no. It’s because the theocrats have largely derailed the effort. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/38 "2005-05-21T09:49:50Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > And why are people holding stem-cell research out as a hope for those with Parkinson’s disease and the like, when cures, if any are found, would be developed far too late for those people? Because my maternal grandfather had Parkinson’s, and now so does his older daughter, my aunt. Who knows if one of us grandkids will develop it? And my aunt’s been hit hard by it, very fast-progressing early-onset. It’s damn depressing. Maybe they can’t cure her, but maybe they could cure one of us, or our kids, if we have it or pass a gene for it on. There’s no testing for it AFAIK, so it’s a crapshoot. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/39 "2005-05-21T13:25:37Z")
Y’know, I’m no researcher or scientist, but I’ll tell you what I do know; however the research comes about, the end result is that ES therapies just have to god damn WORK. They have to work so spectacularly well that these knuckle dragging meatbags are knocked straight on their bible-beating, nascar-watching, wal-mart-shopping asses by the results. If not, we’re right back to listening to the Commander-in-chimp stumble his way through speech after speech about the evil of this type of thing. Damn, I’m getting WAY tired of this country. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751/40 "2005-05-21T14:17:53Z")
“They” are anti-science. “They” have repeatedly put political expediency and corporate crony interest before science. Why should the stem cell issue be any different? “They” have even doctored the meanings of what reports actually say. “This technology/research/theory/whatever has not been proven to work, so we must oppose it”. Well shit. Research is supposed to test, verify, measure, and SEE if it will work or not. “This technology/research/theory/whatever is against God”. Well wow. Did the Almighty call you on that fancy red phone and tell you directly? If so, color me impressed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-war-on-therapeutic-stem-cell-science-continues/304751.md?page=3)