# Bush's Whitehall Palace Speech--opinions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153 "2003-11-19T18:20:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/21 "2003-11-20T01:27:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **This is not a “Christian nation,” Mr. Moto. It’s a secular one.** Incorrect, **DtC**. America is a Christian nation with a secular government. Any country with an overwhelming majority of its citizenry practicing Christianity is, by definition, a Christian nation. If I described Egypt as a Muslim nation, nobody would contradict me, despite the sizable presence of religious minorities there. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/22 "2003-11-20T01:32:48Z")
The overwhelming majority of theis country is also white. Does that make it a “white” country? This is not a “Christian” country. Sorry. T ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/23 "2003-11-20T01:44:52Z")
I like it better when he drools and gibbers and reinforces the impression that he’s a blithering idiot. I have to admit that he comes off as downright articulate here. Wrong and dangerous but articulate. Even have to credit him with a sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/24 "2003-11-20T02:03:35Z")
Sounds like a pretty good speech to me. Whats the problem?? I’m still not voting for the man, but I almost wish I had of tuned in to see it now. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/25 "2003-11-20T02:14:00Z")
HHmmm… only read the piece the OP put… and I didn’t like it. Reasons: > [@](#): > > I’ve been here only a short time, but I’ve noticed that the tradition of free speech – exercised with enthusiasm – (laughter) – is alive and well here in London. We have that at home, too. They now have that right in Baghdad, as well. (Applause.) This type of argument has been popping up all the time… and its plain silly. So why not “liberate” North Korea… Africa and Pakistan ? I’m happy for the Iraqi… but what about the rest of the scared world. > [@](#): > > America and Great Britain have done, and will do, all in their power to prevent the United Nations from solemnly choosing its own irrelevance and inviting the fate of the League of Nations. It’s not enough to meet the dangers of the world with resolutions; we must meet those dangers with resolve. Oh… so the UN is weak and the USA must save them from irrelevance. Its the US that is trying to make them irrelevant ! The fact that the Oval Office gets to play security council all on its lonesome isn’t dangerous at all… ? Then he goes to accuse Europe of being too multilateral (and that they were a step away from fascism). Never mind that the US was pro-Hitler and isolationist at that time. > [@](#): > > Leaders in Europe should withdraw all favor and support from any Palestinian ruler who fails his people and betrays their cause. And Europe’s leaders – and all leaders – should strongly oppose anti-Semitism, which poisons public debates over the future of the Middle East. ``` So he basically accuses europeans of supporting the Palestinians and being anti-semitic in the same phrase ? Nice move. Stop being anti-muslim yourself Bush. Simple Summary: UN and multilaralism are irrelevant without "action". Europe is nice... but not right. Stop loving palestinians... and hating Israel. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/26 "2003-11-20T02:23:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The overwhelming majority of theis country is also white. Does that make it a “white” country? \*\* Since “whiteness” doesn’t significantly affect personal and public character and morality, and the structure of society and the fovernmental and nongovernmental organizations that operate within it, I’d have to say no. Or at least, that such a description is trite and doesn’t begin to address fundamental notions of American history and character. If you think such a description is closer to true, have at it. Calling America a white country makes you sound like a Klansman, though. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/27 "2003-11-20T02:28:06Z")
Just the normal crap, fwiw he had some real competition just a few hundred yards down the road. The main opposition party has a new leader and it was PMQ’s at lunchtime today – it was back to the most exciting level of exchange. This was gladiatorial stuff of the finest standard for which even Blair was on the back foot at times: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk\_politics/3263655.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3263655.stm) Bush was the second act and even at his very best, it was just another speech other people wrote for him. Maybe his delivery has improved - and his ability to not rely on an autocue so often - but it’s still other peoples’ words delivered without the crucial rebuttal or questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/28 "2003-11-20T02:35:16Z")
According to the American Religious Identification Survey, 81% of all Americans identify themselves with a particular religion and 77% of all Americans identify themselves as Christian. This was in 2001. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr\_prac2.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/29 "2003-11-20T07:17:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Moto \* > If you think such a description is closer to true, have at it. Calling America a white country makes you sound like a Klansman, though. And calling America a Christian nation makes you sound like someone ignorant of the Bill of Rights. Just wanted to point that out. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/30 "2003-11-20T08:43:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Moto \* > \*\*You, in this thread, insult Christians by implying that they all wish a Hindu astronaut to land in hell. \*\* A [Sikh](http://altreligion.about.com/cs/sikh/a/aa020503.htm?zIr=2#r) isn’t an [Hindu](http://www.cet.edu/earthinfo/sasia/punjab/PJtopic5.html). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/31 "2003-11-20T09:25:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \*Perhaps the president could have beem more inclusive in his remarks reagarding the **Coumbia** ’s crew. But while Kalpana Chawla was a Sikh, and I can’t speak for all Sikhs (or any Sikhs for that matter), [url=http://www.sikhs.org/relig\_se.htm]it doesn’t appear that a Sikh would be offended by the president’s remark \*\* Wow, I can’t believe I made so many mistakes in one sentence- ouch! But it still stands that Sikh’s are definately not considered “people of the book” that would subcribe to the Judeo-Christian (and arguably Muslim) form of monotheism and cosmology. I believe most Christians would find the idea of “souls merging with God” to be a false view of heaven and perhaps even heritical (I’ve head plenty of people get down on Mormons for believeing that man and God could ever be equivelent). The Sikh concept of an afterlife seems to most resemble the Hindu concept, anyway. Kalpana Chawla, if she did reach her religion’s higher goal, isn’t hanging out with Jesus in the clouds, she’s ceased to exist as an individual and merged into a form of God that Christian’s definately don’t believe in. Certainly not any concept of “home now” that we have. In any case, there was no reason to bring religion into things, and in this case it _was_ blatantly ignoring the religious beliefs of a specific individual because it was just _so damn important_ to talk about Jehovah in that speech. What if we had a Christian American die on an Indian flight and the Indian Prime Minister started running off at the mouth about how they hope she escaped samsara or at least ends up reincarnated in a good life? It’s callous to the family, it’s rude to the other nations, and it is completly unnceccesary unless you have some wierd little agenda that you can’t let go of long enough to make one little speech. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/32 "2003-11-20T11:14:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Moto \* > \*\*Since “whiteness” doesn’t significantly affect personal and public character and morality, and the structure of society and the fovernmental and nongovernmental organizations that operate within it, I’d have to say no. > > Or at least, that such a description is trite and doesn’t begin to address fundamental notions of American history and character. > > If you think such a description is closer to true, have at it. Calling America a white country makes you sound like a Klansman, though. \*\* You seem to have a bit of difficulty understanding rhetorical questions, **Mr. Moto**. It wasn’t that long ago that “whiteness” _was_ thought to “significantly affect personal and public character and morality, and the structure of society and the fovernmental [sic] and nongovernmental organizations that operate within it”. You remember? Racism, and all that? And if you think that the concepts of “blackness” and “whiteness” don’t “begin to address fundamental notions of American history and character”, then I don’t think you have much understanding of your country’s history. Civil war? Civil Rights Movement? Martin Luther King? Anything like that ring a bell? And finally your statement “Calling America a white country makes you sound like a Klansman, though.” is a ridiculous “I’m rubber, you’re glue” argument. It might work when dealing with fourth graders, but we try to aim a bit higher here. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/33 "2003-11-20T11:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*What has astonished me is reports from the UK that Britons were astonished at how Bush delivered the above speech and didn’t just stand up, drool, and say “Hee hee, funny monkey.” over and over. Did Britons actually expect that Bush couldn’t pull off a polished speech when given boatloads of time to prepare, rehearse, be coached, etc.? \*\* Well we have seen the speeches he’s been making for the past few years. This was a vast improvement, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/34 "2003-11-20T13:00:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > The overwhelming majority of theis country is also white. Does that make it a “white” country? According to the liberal nutjobs I’ve had to put up with over the years, yes, it does. That’s why there’s no “white history month”. ---
**Author:** ![Planet\_of\_the\_Shapes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Planet\_of\_the\_Shapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Planet_of_the_Shapes)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/35 "2003-11-20T13:16:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*According to the liberal nutjobs I’ve had to put up with over the years, yes, it does. That’s why there’s no “white history month”. \*\* Aww poor Dogface. This is clearly a sore spot for you. How about you organise your own white history month? ---
**Author:** ![And\_that\_s\_the\_bottom\_line](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df788c/32.png) [@And\_that\_s\_the\_bottom\_line](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/And_that_s_the_bottom_line)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/36 "2003-11-20T13:36:12Z")
I thought Bush’s speech was fairly well delivered but relatively meaningless until he backs up his words with actions. Bush needs to hold Israel accountable for it’s actions by making sure all illegal settlements and outposts are dismantled and not let Israel continuously defy international law. Bush should exert pressure on Israel by withholding all foreign aid until Israel starts to obey international law. On a separate note, it looks like terrorists are starting to attack British targets with car bombs just like they threatened to.[Another pair of car bombs](http://www.msnbc.com/news/993947.asp?vts=112020030334) just went off in Instanbul outside a bank and the British Consulate killing another 25 people. So here’s to you Mr. Blair, and the one fine mess you’ve gotten your country into. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/37 "2003-11-20T13:53:29Z")
There is something decidedly wrong when France and Germany agree on something, here loving Arafat or hating the US. That’s never good. Don’t dare him to liberate North Korea. Seriously. I have a stock portfolio to think about. Gulags? What gulags? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/38 "2003-11-20T15:03:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Since “whiteness” doesn’t significantly affect personal and public character and morality, and the structure of society and the fovernmental and nongovernmental organizations that operate within it, I’d have to say no. Neither does religion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/39 "2003-11-20T15:06:21Z")
Actually, I shouldn’t say religion doesn’t affect those things at all but it doesn’t affect them any more than race does. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/40 "2003-11-20T15:32:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > \*\* > OK, I’m getting away from Fair Use there, but that’s most of what I liked. What say the Dopers, from the UK and elsewhere? \*\* It was my understanding that all presidential speeches were public domain… Anybody willing to confirm? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153.md?page=3)