# Bush's Whitehall Palace Speech--opinions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153 "2003-11-19T18:20:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/41 "2003-11-20T15:33:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*Every time he references Judeo-Christian values he implies that I do not value the thing that are valued in America, and neither do my Hindu, Buddhist, and Pagan friends. \*\* This is oyur beef? In the very quote you complained about, and wherever he gets half a chance, he explicitly says the opposite: that other religions can and do share the same basic values of his religion. Hell that’s his whole rationale for his policy in the ME: that the desire for freedom and liberty are universal, and he has incessantly repeated that Islam is compatible with it. Any or all of that that mey be wrong or naive, but to say W has it in for other religions is to utterly disregard what he actually says and does because, well, he’s a pubbie and we all know what he really thinks. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\*I watch a lot of Bush speeches, and it’s only a matter of time before he says something about God. \*\*Why do I get the impression you’re leaning forward in your seat waiting for it? > [@](#): > > \*\*Yes, as an atheist, I do feel marginalized. Every time he says or implies this is a Christian nation, he is also saying that I am not a full part of this nation- that I do not fully belong here. \*\*Horsehockey. When people talk about Florida is a state full of old people and hispanics, I’m not being excluded because I’m neither. [/QUOTE] \*\*And then there is stuff like saying that Challenger astronauts were “home now”- which we all know implies heaven. One of those astronauts was Indian and very likely Hindu. I doubt her parents are going to be reassured that she’s hanging out in Christian heaven- heck, according to many Christians she’d be burning in Hell. [/QUOTE] \*\*So what are we to make of the fact the he DIDN’T say that, that he pointedly said they were ALL “home”? Maybe that he was just saying vaugely platidinous? Would “a better place” be OK? No, that still implies an afterlife. How about “they may or may not still exist in a spiritual condion that may or may not be better than this one?” That would be nice… ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/42 "2003-11-20T15:35:57Z")
_ahem_ Maybe another thread, folks, for the reference to religion? Aside from the assurance to Muslims (something reinforced in this mornings’ press conference that yep, it’s the same God) I don’t see what relevance it has to the speech or to athiest’s hurt feelings. Anyway, this morning Israel is saying [no dice about tearing down the barrier.](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/20/international/middleeast/20REAX.html) I agree with the posters who said he needs to follow this up with some sort of action, although given the ruthlessness so horribly demonstrated in Turkey today it’ll be hard politically to crack down on the other countries that’re in the crosshairs with you. But at least he’s on the record with it, that and that Arafat is not doing anybody any good and Europeans are wrong to support him. We’ll see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/43 "2003-11-20T15:38:49Z")
Object lessons #1-4 in Why You Should Preview ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/44 "2003-11-20T16:08:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by And that’s the bottom line \* > \*\*On a separate note, it looks like terrorists are starting to attack British targets with car bombs just like they threatened to.[Another pair of car bombs](http://www.msnbc.com/news/993947.asp?vts=112020030334) just went off in Instanbul outside a bank and the British Consulate killing another 25 people. So here’s to you Mr. Blair, and the one fine mess you’ve gotten your country into. \*\* Funny that you blame Mr. Blair, but not the terrorists. Classic blaming the victim, that. Kind of like telling a rape victim that she shouldn’t have been wearing tight sweaters and walking alone at night. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/45 "2003-11-20T16:23:11Z")
No, it’s like walking up to a bunch of gang bangers and kicking one of them in the nuts. Blair’s and Bush’s actions are no more legal or legitimate than those of the “terrorists” and they’ve killed _way_ more innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/46 "2003-11-20T16:25:31Z")
Yep, that’s why before B&B came into office, there were never ever any terrorist attacks on innocents. Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/47 "2003-11-20T16:49:46Z")
Well, that’s the difference between us, **DtC**. You look at the gang bangers and run away like a coward. I look at them and want them dead or in jail, where they won’t hurt anybody anymore. I wouldn’t kick them in the nuts. I’d be aiming for the center of body mass. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/48 "2003-11-20T16:54:31Z")
Still Blair and Bush could have done other things against AQ besides invading countries remotely connected to the problem. Terrorism hasn’t been this active in a long time. I don’t think it was AQ that prompted all of this on their lonesome was it ? So B&B are responsible for the extra attacks… ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/49 "2003-11-20T16:56:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*No, it’s like walking up to a bunch of gang bangers and kicking one of them in the nuts. That is rather stupid. The smart thing to do would be to saw them in half from 50 yards away with miniguns. Bush has been showing far too much restraint and using far too little force. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/50 "2003-11-20T16:56:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Moto \* > \*\* I wouldn’t kick them in the nuts. I’d be aiming for the center of body mass. \*\* Except you don’t know where the “center of the body mass” is… so you go and shoot that other guy that looks just like them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/51 "2003-11-20T17:06:31Z")
Vigilantism is still illegal. The correct thing to do is call the police if you suspect tha a crime is being committed. In this case the “police” would have been the UN. What you _can’t_ do is round up your own posse of like-minded idiots and go shooting up the neighborhood and killing innocent bystanders. In the case of Iraq, it turned out there wasn’t even a crime in first place. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/52 "2003-11-20T17:31:35Z")
Posted by **Dogface:** > [@](#): > > Bush has been showing far too much restraint and using far too little force. WTF??? Two ground wars since 9/11/01 are “far too little force” for you? What more do you want? Who else should we have invaded by now? ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/53 "2003-11-20T18:15:42Z")
Wow! A brilliant speech from the First Great Man of the Twenty-first Century. The courage and level headed thinking exhibited by George W Bush is the stuff of heros. This God fearing man, my boys, is the Winston Churchill of our time. Meanwhile, outside in the sreets of London, the Communists and Muslim extremists have organized hordes of flat headed Englanders to rail against the hope for a for a better world that President Bush represents. May God save the Queen and bless George W Bush. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/54 "2003-11-20T18:25:11Z")
:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/55 "2003-11-20T18:28:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Vigilantism is still illegal. The correct thing to do is call the police if you suspect tha a crime is being committed. In this case the “police” would have been the UN. \*\* Quote the specific part of the US Constitution that has surrendered all sovereignty to the United Nations. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/56 "2003-11-20T18:41:48Z")
No crime, **DtC** , just an act of war. Least that’s what failure to abide by the terms of a negotiated cease fire amounts to, in my book. And you can, _yes you can_, as a nation, act if faced with an act of war. And the funny thing about war is that it doesn’t fit well into your facile little analogies. Because when your country is attacked, or faces a threat, it isn’t at all like a private citizen being a crime victim. The UN isn’t at all like a police force. If it were, it would be a bunch of desk sergeants eating donuts and drinking coffee incessantly, while crime ran rampant and absolutely no arrests were made. Likewise, the U.S. military isn’t at all like a police force. If it were, it would be an entire force of Inspector Harry Callahans. Nobody would be left alive to be read Miranda rights. You’re trying to force institutions into roles for which they are singularly ill-suited. I don’t know of one serious international studies scholar who would describe the UN as the world’s policeman. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/57 "2003-11-20T18:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*Wow! A brilliant speech from the First Great Man of the Twenty-first Century. The courage and level headed thinking exhibited by George W Bush is the stuff of heros. This God fearing man, my boys, is the Winston Churchill of our time. > > Meanwhile, outside in the sreets of London, the Communists and Muslim extremists have organized hordes of flat headed Englanders to rail against the hope for a for a better world that President Bush represents. > > May God save the Queen and bless George W Bush. \*\* Holy crap. If you replaced “George Bush” with “Kim Jong-Il” and cleaned up the ideology a bit, this could be a transcript from North Korean TV. The really scary thing is…I think he’s serious, fellow Dopers! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/58 "2003-11-20T19:03:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Quote the specific part of the US Constitution that has surrendered all sovereignty to the United Nations. \*\* Strawman. I didn’t say that the US had surrendered any sovereignty to the UN, I said the UN was the controlling international authority. It was illegal for the US to invade Iraq without UN approval. The UN Charter is a ratified treaty and as such acquires the authority of US law as well as international law. GWB is not the sheriff. He doesn’t get to go around arbitrarily enforcing UN resolutions all by himself. To do so makes him a war criminal. **Mr. Moto** : What “act of war” did Iraq commit against the US? When was the US “attacked” by Iraq? Are you one of those Faux News fans who thinks that Saddam hussein had someting to do with 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/59 "2003-11-20T21:41:34Z")
> [@](#): > > In the case of Iraq, it turned out there wasn’t even a crime in first place. Wow, so Iraq was really in full compliance with UN resolutions this whole time? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153/60 "2003-11-20T22:47:09Z")
They weren’t guilty of the alleged crime they were attacked for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bushs-whitehall-palace-speech-opinions/214153.md?page=4)