# Business license to play in a bar band??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 19, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843 "2008-12-19T01:59:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/21 "2008-12-19T16:15:09Z")
Would something like a band need a business license only in the city where they are nominally based, or potentially in every city they perform in? If the latter, it could get very expensive for, say, a brass quintet in the Los Angeles area - where nearly every gig could be in a different little city. I’ve played in a few such groups, and to my knowledge none of them have obtained business licenses. Perhaps we were being blatant scofflaws, but for such very-part-time, amateur outfits obtaining licenses is (in my experience) unheard-of. A couple of larger and more organized ensembles I perform in _are_ registered as 501©(3) nonprofits, but that’s a different matter entirely, I believe. (For that matter, maybe those bands _do_ have business licenses, and I’m just unaware of it as I’m not intimately involved in their management…) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/22 "2008-12-19T16:33:13Z")
Could the guy be from ASCAP (American Society of Composers Authors and Publishers)? One summer I had a summer job with them. We’d go into hotel bars, bars, anyplace they played live music or jukeboxes etc and we’d spot check and count the number of people and seat to see if they had the correct ASCAP license so the royalty payments were getting paid out correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/23 "2008-12-19T21:32:46Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Hmmm. Can’t say I appreciate the OP withholding important details like that. It’ll be a cold day in hell before I reply to another GQ thread from you. The post immediately before yours begins “Ok, I just talked to my bass player.” Could you find it in your heart to give him the benefit of the doubt and not accuse him of “withholding important details” when all his posts demonstrate is that he was unaware of some important details? If not, **gnatcha** , I’ll answer your GQ threads, and I’m almost as smart as **Oakminster**. **Gfactor** General Questions Moderator To be clear: This is not a formal warning. Merely a request. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/24 "2008-12-19T21:45:16Z")
Here is the ordinance on business licenses: > [@](#): > > 4.04.005 Definitions. > As used in this title, unless the context requires otherwise, the following words shall have the meaning as set forth in this chapter: > > 1. “Advertise” means to call attention to a product, service or business so as to promote sales. Business cards used as identification and invoices are not to be considered advertising. > 2. “Billboards and off-premise signs” means all businesses that own billboards or off-premise signs (as defined in CCMC Title 18) for advertisement. > 3. “Board” means the board of supervisors of Carson City. > 4. “Business” or “doing business” means, except as provided herein, all professions, trades, occupations and callings carried on for profit, and in addition includes labor unions, labor organizations and trade unions; however, “business” does not include the rental of three (3) or less residential units. > 5. “Commercial rentals” means any leased nonresidential office unit or units. > 6. “Contract office business” means a person doing business in Carson City without employees in Carson City by using the services of a shared resident office staff in Carson City. > 7. “Contractor” means a person required by the state of Nevada Contractors Board to have a license as a contractor, whether the person is a general or subcontractor. > 8. “Garage sale” means the occasional and casual sale of personal property open to the public and held on the seller’s own residential premises and includes a “lawn sale,” “yard sale,” “attic sale,” “rummage sale” and other similar sales. > 9. “Hobby-Supplemental income business” means any activity conducted as a hobby, or to supplement one’s income, if the gross income derived from such activity does not exceed three thousand five hundred dollars ($3,500.00) per year. > 10. “Home occupation business” means a person, excluding contractors conducting business out of a residence and whose business complies with the home occupation regulations of Title 18 of the CCMC. > 11. “Independent contractor” means a person who contracts to do a piece of work according to his or her own methods and is subject to an employer’s control only as to the final result of the work. Examples are, but not limited to: all real estate agents, insurance agents, stockbrokers, hairdressers, and shoe shiners. Employees of licensees are not independent contractors for the purposes of this chapter. > 12. “Off-premises sale” means a sale of goods or services held by a person licensed to make such sales but which is held in Carson City at a site other than the site specified on the person’s business license. > 13. “Out-of-town business” means a person, excluding a contractor, conducting business in Carson City without a physical address in Carson City. > 14. “Person” means a corporation, association, syndicate, partnership, club, trust, independent contractor or natural person but does not include employees of businesses licensed under this chapter unless an employee is an owner of the business. > 15. “Premises” means actual space of a particular business which would include surrounding sidewalks and designated parking. > 16. “Professional” means one whose practice of a profession requires advanced education and a license from a state licensing agency, board, commission or court. > 17. “Nonprofit organization” means all institutions, corporations, organizations or associations that are for charitable, eleemosynary or civic purposes and whose donations or receipts received are not used for the private gain of any person. > 18. “Vending businesses” means all businesses that provide coin operated machines or honor trays to the public or to another business. (Ord. 1997-64 § 3, 1997: Ord. 1983-7 § 1, 1983). > > 4.04.010 Business license required. > > 1. It is unlawful for any person to engage in or carry on any trade, profession, calling or business in whole or in part within Carson City, or to advertise that person is conducting or carrying on any business specified herein, without first applying for, obtaining and maintaining a license as set forth in this chapter. > 2. Violation of this section shall be punishable as prescribed in Section 1.08.010 of this code. (Ord. 1983-7 § 2, 1983: Amended by Ord. 1977-1 § 1(a), 1977). > > 4.04.011 Exemptions from licenses. > > 1. No license is required for two (2) or fewer garage sales in any calendar year so long as the garage sales do not exceed three (3) days in duration. > 2. No license is required for a person whose business is located or licensed outside Carson City and who is appearing before or conducting business directly with an agency, branch, department, board or commission of the state of Nevada in Carson City for work performed outside Carson City. This exemption applies to the following, without limitation thereto: attorneys practicing before the supreme court, paid and registered lobbyists present for a legislative session, and a contractor performing work outside Carson City who consults with a state agency in Carson City. > 3. No license is required for a person who owns a commercial rental if the commercial rental is managed by a person who holds a Carson City business license as a property manager. > 4. No license is required for a person who places their own personal items at a licensed pawn or consignment shop on a casual basis. > 5. No license is required for an entertainment group or individual hired by a licensed establishment. > 6. No license is required for a business located outside of Carson City that is hired by a licensed business or government agency for seminars or training of their employees. (Ord. 2001-19 § 2, 2001; Ord. 1999-22 (part), 1999: Ord. 1997-64 § 4, 1997: Ord. 1983-7 § 3, 1983). > **[Municode Library](https://library.municode.com)** > > MunicodeNEXT, the industry's leading search application with over 3,300 codes and growing! ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/25 "2008-12-19T21:48:02Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > The post immediately before yours begins “Ok, I just talked to my bass player.” Could you find it in your heart to give him the benefit of the doubt and not accuse him of “withholding important details” when all his posts demonstrate is that he was unaware of some important details? If not, **gnatcha** , I’ll answer your GQ threads, and I’m almost as smart as **Oakminster**. > > **Gfactor** > General Questions Moderator > > To be clear: This is not a formal warning. Merely a request. My problem is that his OP says he just got off the phone with his bass player, and then he lays out a very improbable scenario. Then, when the discussion indicates several people consider the scenario at least somewhat suspect, all of a sudden he talks to the guy again, 2.5 hours later, and we have a very different scenario. The questions raised in the thread seem like obvious questions to raise immediately when learning of the alleged incident. Why would he get a phone call…learn he may need a business license…and say “OK, I need to go post this in GQ, goodbye”…and then later talk to the same person again to get a completely different version of events? His first post sounded like the alleged incident just happened. His update reveals the initial contact was several days ago…long enough for a written followup to arrive in the mail. I’m just having a hard time buying that he didn’t know the whole story before he posted his OP. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/26 "2008-12-19T21:49:23Z")
I don’t understand. What nefarious motive would the OP have to deliberately deceive us? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/27 "2008-12-19T21:50:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’m just having a hard time buying that he didn’t know the whole story before he posted his OP. And his motive was what, just to suck you in? C’mon, he had a question, folks indicated more info was needed, and he got it. What’s so hard to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/28 "2008-12-19T21:57:13Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > My problem is that his OP says he just got off the phone with his bass player, and then he lays out a very improbable scenario. Then, when the discussion indicates several people consider the scenario at least somewhat suspect, all of a sudden he talks to the guy again, and we have a very different scenario. The questions raised in the thread seem like obvious questions to raise immediately when learning of the alleged incident. Why would he get a phone call…learn he may need a business license…and say “OK, I need to go post this in GQ, goodbye”…and then later talk to the same person again to get a completely different version of events? His first post sounded like the alleged incident just happened. His update reveals the initial contact was several days ago…long enough for a written followup to arrive in the mail. I’m just having a hard time buying that he didn’t know the whole story before he posted his OP. That’s fine. We lawyers are cynical bunch aren’t we? 😉 I don’t mean to dismiss your concerns, but I also don’t want this thread to veer off into a discussion of the OP’s _bona fides_. That’s a topic for the Pit. And you’re certainly entitled to choose where and when you post, and to which posters questions you choose to respond. But please don’t announce your choices. That’s all I’m saying. ETA: See what I mean? Folks. Let’s take this thread back to the OP’s question and leave discussion of his motivations for another forum. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/29 "2008-12-19T22:02:36Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > And his motive was what, just to suck you in? > > C’mon, he had a question, folks indicated more info was needed, and he got it. What’s so hard to believe? I’m a cynic. I also note that under the code section **Gfactor** listed, Exemption #5 may mean the OP does not actually need the license the Enforcement guy says he needs. There seems to be some ambiguity between the advertising triggering license requirement and the exemption. Also some ambiguity in the definition of advertising. If the bass player hands a business card to a club owner…no advertising. If someone else, in this case a Judge, posts the business card on a bulletin board, without the knowledge or consent of the band…is that advertising? PS: **Gfactor** …no problem. I ain’t gonna pit the guy over it or anything. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/30 "2008-12-19T22:03:54Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > 4.04.011 Exemptions from licenses. > … > 5. No license is required for an entertainment group or individual hired by a licensed establishment. Wouldn’t this include the OP, as long as he’s playing in a “licensed establishment”? ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/31 "2008-12-19T22:09:21Z")
Hey **Oakminster** , FYI, please add me to your list of people to not reply to in GQ. I don’t want to have to deal with your pedantic crap. Way to shit all over a thread. And back to reality; **MikeS** , that was exactly what I was going to post as well. I’d say call the guy, give him the 4.04.011 number and ask him what his beef is. ---
**Author:** ![gnagtcha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@gnagtcha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnagtcha)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/32 "2008-12-19T22:33:25Z")
I know the moderator doesn’t want anymore of this, but, may I just explain the sequence of events. My bass player called me yesterday and asked if my wife was home. She wasn’t. I asked him what he needed to talk to her about. He told me that he had been in contact with some guy from (as far as he could remember, he didn’t have all the info in front of him) code enforcement dept. telling my bass player the band needed a business license to perform. Whatever details he might have told me went in one ear and out the other, we both ended up trying to figure out if any bands we knew of ever had a license. So, no, I just didn’t remember all the facts when I posted the original. I told him as soon as my wife got home, I would talk to her and see what she thought and I would call him back. I did the original post as a simple inquiry to see if any other bands out there had to deal with this. When my wife got home I got back on the computer and noticed that more info was needed. I called my bass player back and asked him for all the details. I posted them. I really didn’t mean to ruffle feathers with what I thought was a simple question. I’m really not that good at conveying myself at times and sometimes I don’t think about what needs to be in an OP. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/33 "2008-12-19T22:34:36Z")
> [@MikeG](#): > > Hey **Oakminster** , FYI, please add me to your list of people to not reply to in GQ. I don’t want to have to deal with your pedantic crap. Way to shit all over a thread. Let’s just get back to the thread, ok? **Gfactor** General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/34 "2008-12-19T22:37:49Z")
> [@gnagtcha](#): > > When my wife got home I got back on the computer and noticed that more info was needed. I called my bass player back and asked him for all the details. I posted them. I really didn’t mean to ruffle feathers with what I thought was a simple question. I’m really not that good at conveying myself at times and sometimes I don’t think about what needs to be in an OP. The only feathers you ruffled were mine, and I’m a known curmudgeon. Still not sure you really need that license…but it would likely be cheaper to buy it than litigate it. ---
**Author:** ![gnagtcha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@gnagtcha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnagtcha)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/35 "2008-12-19T22:46:06Z")
While we do mainly play in licensed establishments, we do, once in awhile, play private parties and I have a feeling that’s why the officer assumed the card was on a bulletin board and we would probably need a license for that ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/36 "2008-12-19T23:24:47Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Could the guy be from ASCAP (American Society of Composers Authors and Publishers)? > > One summer I had a summer job with them. We’d go into hotel bars, bars, anyplace they played live music or jukeboxes etc and we’d spot check and count the number of people and seat to see if they had the correct ASCAP license so the royalty payments were getting paid out correctly. ASCAP would go after the bar, not the band. The idea of ASCAP and BMI licenses is that the venue has to have a license to allow things from the catalog to be performed there. They don’t directly license the performers. As long as the bar has the appropriate ASCAP license, any band that performs there can cover anything in the ASCAP catalog. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/37 "2008-12-20T03:44:32Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > ASCAP would go after the bar, not the band. The idea of ASCAP and BMI licenses is that the venue has to have a license to allow things from the catalog to be performed there. They don’t directly license the performers. As long as the bar has the appropriate ASCAP license, any band that performs there can cover anything in the ASCAP catalog. True but the band also has a responsibility to make sure that anyplace they play every single song they are playing is covered and the royalties are paid out. So, at least what I learned when I was there, if the establishment isn’t covered, the band ALSO is in trouble. Because it is STILL the responsibility of the band to make sure all the songs they play are covered or else do their own original material It was a fun job. We’d get the band names and everything else, 'cause a HUGE number of place had an ASCAP license but the wrong type. And on more than a few times we got chased out of place by HUGE men (When you’re 20 and working just for the summer and you get to catch people cheating, believe me that is fun) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/38 "2008-12-20T12:12:18Z")
If one member of your band lives outside the city limits, you may be able to claim that you are not in his jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![gnagtcha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c68b51/32.png) [@gnagtcha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnagtcha)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/39 "2008-12-20T19:36:50Z")
Actually, Bosda, 3 members live outside the city limits and 2 in Carson. But, I have another question. The private parties that we played at were all done at casino convention rooms and a bar up at the lake that you can rent out for the night for parties. Although we weren’t hired by the licensed establishment, I’m wondering if there might be some gray area there that might be worked into an exemption. I’m just curious. If we have to end up getting a business license, we’ll go ahead and get it, and, it might be a hoot being the only band in Northern Nevada with a business license attached to the bass drum. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843/40 "2008-12-20T20:12:26Z")
If you want a definitive answer to to your question, you’ll need to ask a Nevada licenses lawyer who is familiar with local business licensing requirements. There are a few sites where you can post a question and get an answer from a licenses attorney in your jurisdiction. [Lawguru.com](http://Lawguru.com) is one of them. There are others. That said, I’m going to suggest that: 1. The outside of Carson city exemptions probably don’t apply to your situation. There are two provisions–one says: > [@](#): > > 1. No license is required for a person whose business is located or licensed outside Carson City **and who is appearing before or conducting business directly with an agency, branch, department, board or commission of the state of Nevada in Carson City for work performed outside Carson City. This exemption applies to the following, without limitation thereto: attorneys practicing before the supreme court, paid and registered lobbyists present for a legislative session, and a contractor performing work outside Carson City who consults with a state agency in Carson City.** (Emphasis added) and the other says: > [@](#): > > 1. No license is required for a business located outside of Carson City \*\*that is hired by a licensed business or government agency for seminars or training of their employees. \*\* (Emphasis added.) Neither of these fits your circumstances. 1. There may or may not be something to the licenses establishment exemption. I doubt that the license they are talking about would be an ASCAP or BMI-type license though. Those licenses would not cover all forms of entertainment, and that’s what the exemption addresses. If I had to guess what they are talking about, I’d say they are referring to an entertainment group that is hired by a venue that has its own business license. This is a two-edged sword because it gets you off for performances at casinos where the casino hires you, but arguably doesn’t when you are hired by a third party. The exemtion only covers acts “hired by” the licensed establishment. OTOH, if the exemption did refer to ASCAP licenses, ASCAP doesn’t seem to offer licenses for private parties: > [@](#): > > Steinblatt: We represent 85,000 U.S. songwriters and music publishers, and hundreds of thousands more from around the world. They rent to us the right to license public performances of their works. These are performances that take place in either a public place or anywhere a group other than a normal circle of family and social acquaintances is gathered – in other words, a bar, a hotel, a nightclub or a convention. These are all public places where public performances take place. We also license a lot of big corporations and even little corporations that have employee parties or who bring in all of their distributors or franchisees and have a big blowout one night. **On the other hand, a wedding, a birthday party, that kind of thing, would generally be a private performance and not something that ASCAP would license**. (Emphasis added.) [http://www.djtimes.com/original/djmag/oct99/octcb.htm](http://www.djtimes.com/original/djmag/oct99/octcb.htm) I’m not sure whether that helps or hurts you under the exemption, although I’d suggest that an individual who hires a band for a party doesn’t count as an “establishment.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-license-to-play-in-a-bar-band/477843.md?page=3)