# Business that's a front, but not for crime. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951 "2013-04-28T21:59:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/21 "2013-04-29T15:49:24Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Hello? Not registering a business with the government is illegal. And if (or when) they find out, there will be hell to pay. > [@DrCube](#): > > Not if there is no business to register. We’re talking about fooling your friends, not the IRS. This is part of what I thought might be a complication. You rent an office and set it up with a hefty internet connection, big screen TV, anything you need for your hobbies. Don’t actually do any business, but conspicuously “go to work” in the morning, surf the web, watch TV, work on your novel that may or may not ever be published, etc., then go home at the end of the day. If (when?) the city comes after you for doing business without a license are you going to be in trouble for deliberately making it look like you’re running a business? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/22 "2013-04-29T15:50:23Z")
Two elderly ladies used to run a ‘cafe’ in a village I used to live in. It was just a place for them and friends to sit around, drink tea and gossip. It actually closed for lunch 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/23 "2013-04-29T15:52:52Z")
I don’t really think the IRS cares if you just get a bunch of business cards printed up. Or if you rent office space in some building. It might be a nice place to build and display your collection of model airplanes, you know? I like the thought of a thick looking carved wooden door with a brass plate the size of a business card on it that just says: _Alias & Spurious By Appointment Only_ ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/24 "2013-04-29T16:00:15Z")
[Joe’s Bar in Ligonier, PA](http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/3506) fits well in this thread. Although Joe is dead, he used this bar as a place to display his taxidermied hunting trophies. There are hundreds of animals, including an elephant head, taking up most of this dive bar. We stop there anytime we pass through Ligonier. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/25 "2013-04-29T16:05:44Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I rent a booth at a small antique mall, and one of the storefronts also touts itself as an “antique store” that’s open by appointment only, but I’ve never seen anyone go in there, and I’m not sure how anyone COULD go in there because the place is packed solid. The owners of the antique mall said they believe the person who rents that space is a hoarder and uses it for her overflow. The building is for sale, and they looked into buying it just so they could kick her out, because they feel this is a fire hazard. I’d wonder if they couldn’t call the fire department directly as a concerned citizen. If there is a fire there, the FD may end up going in to make sure no one is in there, and they don’t want to try to get into a packed inferno. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/26 "2013-04-29T16:15:20Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > This is part of what I thought might be a complication. You rent an office and set it up with a hefty internet connection, big screen TV, anything you need for your hobbies. Don’t actually do any business, but conspicuously “go to work” in the morning, surf the web, watch TV, work on your novel that may or may not ever be published, etc., then go home at the end of the day. If (when?) the city comes after you for doing business without a license are you going to be in trouble for deliberately making it look like you’re running a business? Reminds me of another thread from a while back, where I wondered about business spaces for rent: you get the usual mini-fridge-and-microwave break room, plus that little office in the back complete with a hot shower, plus – well, yes, a storefront, but who cares? The rent is less than comparable apartments in the area… ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/27 "2013-04-29T17:27:57Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Hello? Not registering a business with the government is illegal. And if (or when) they find out, there will be hell to pay. > [@Doug\_K](#): > > If (when?) the city comes after you for doing business without a license are you going to be in trouble for deliberately making it look like you’re running a business? No, you wouldn’t get in trouble by pretending to run a business… because there’s no business! If you’re not attempting to do business, it doesn’t matter what you do with any property you rent. That said, getting a “business license” in many states requires very little. A small form with your name and address and “business name” and a small fee. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/28 "2013-04-29T17:31:00Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > On a different note, there are actually places that are fronts for the real business underneath, but nothing illegal is involved. > > There’s the [Brooklyn Superhero Supply Store](http://www.superherosupplies.com/) which is a front for a [tutoring center/writing lab](http://www.826nyc.org/about/facts/) for neighborhood kids. Similarly, Chicago’s Wicker Park neighborhood has the [Boring Store](http://www.notasecretagentstore.com/) (Not A Secret Agent Store) which serves a similar function. > > Or there’s the [Safe House](http://www.safe-house.com/) in Milwaukee, a spy-themed bar/restaurant that you access through an ordinary sandwich shop. [This place](http://www.bourbonandbranch.com/) in SF attempts to recreate a speakeasy I’m told, along with requiring a password to get in sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/29 "2013-04-29T17:38:06Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > I’d wonder if they couldn’t call the fire department directly as a concerned citizen. If there is a fire there, the FD may end up going in to make sure no one is in there, and they don’t want to try to get into a packed inferno. I’m planning to stop by there tomorrow, and I’ll mention this. TYVM! ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/30 "2013-04-29T18:03:38Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > No, you wouldn’t get in trouble by pretending to run a business… because there’s no business! If you’re not attempting to do business, it doesn’t matter what you do with any property you rent. In some places you might get in trouble for renting a buisiness-zoned property and _not_ appearing to run a buisiness, though. Especially if they think you’re living there. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/31 "2013-04-29T18:24:57Z")
OK - I’ve been wondering this for a while… If I did win the lottery could I open a bar, get a liquor license and not charge my friends so we could just hang out all day a-la the Badda Bing? Can I just report the loss and pay any applicable taxes? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/32 "2013-04-29T18:34:32Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > OK - I’ve been wondering this for a while… > > If I did win the lottery could I open a bar, get a liquor license and not charge my friends so we could just hang out all day a-la the Badda Bing? Can I just report the loss and pay any applicable taxes? State liquor laws could be a problem. In PA (land of archaic liquor laws) discounting is considered “encouraging consumption”. You could be fined or have your license revoked. A bar I go to was giving prizes to frequent flyers; T-Shirts, hats, etc. The liquor control board put a stop to it.:mad: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/33 "2013-04-29T19:24:25Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > In some places you might get in trouble for renting a buisiness-zoned property and _not_ appearing to run a buisiness, though. Especially if they think you’re living there. Sure, but is there anything illegal about renting that property and _not_ not appearing to run a business? Maybe I say I’m a travel agent, since as per 30 ROCK that’s still technically a thing. Maybe it’s language lessons. Maybe I call myself a life coach upon figuring “consultant” looks a little too vague on a business card. Point is, there’s a sign in the front window, and a message on the answering machine; a website’s up and running, and, well, is it a crime that I’m awful at my job? ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/34 "2013-04-29T19:32:25Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > When I lived in Ealing, West London, there was a very tatty looking restaurant on a local High st. AFAIK in 10 years it didn’t open although it appeared fairly clean inside. > Thought no more of it until I idley googled it [http://www.westealingneighbours.org.uk/WEN-forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=4rbk4mi85m6tidj3rv5c70as47&topic=136.0](http://www.westealingneighbours.org.uk/WEN-forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=4rbk4mi85m6tidj3rv5c70as47&topic=136.0) > > Truth is sometimes more bizarre than fiction! > Peter We Stealing Neighbours? Gulp. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/35 "2013-04-29T20:21:48Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > OK - I’ve been wondering this for a while… > > If I did win the lottery could I open a bar, get a liquor license and not charge my friends so we could just hang out all day a-la the Badda Bing? Can I just report the loss and pay any applicable taxes? See post #15, and keep in mind that a travel business is much easier to justify as a hobby. The IRS would catch on quick, if someone else did. Plus, businesses that make constant losses at least have _some_ gross receipts. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/36 "2013-04-29T20:30:03Z")
Jamie Hyneman’s M5 Industries is a front for _Mythbusters._ Or is it _Mythbusters_ is a front for M5? ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_Tyger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Silver\_Tyger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_Tyger)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/37 "2013-04-29T20:46:31Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I rent a booth at a small antique mall, and one of the storefronts also touts itself as an “antique store” that’s open by appointment only, but I’ve never seen anyone go in there, and I’m not sure how anyone COULD go in there because the place is packed solid. There’s an antique store around here that’s in some one’s garage. You knock and wait for it to open. It’s dark and CROWDED. You can’t see even a 10th of the stuff because besides the tiny little aisle it’s just jam packed. It amazingly looks like it’s all actual antiques, but I don’t know how anything could ever get sold. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/38 "2013-04-29T20:51:33Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > It’s not uncommon for wealthy people to get a real estate license to hang in someone else’s office and not work at all in the business. As long as they pay their dues, it’s easy to find a broker willing to do it. An acquaintance of mine lived near a state line, and had real estate licenses in both states. He was required to have an office in both states, each with a visible sign posted on the outside of the office. So his brother let him hang a sign in a window of the brother’s office. He did most of his business by cell phone, and I think he used post office boxes for mail. He claimed that it obeyed all of the legal technicalities. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/39 "2013-04-29T21:02:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Sure, but is there anything illegal about renting that property and _not_ not appearing to run a business? Maybe I say I’m a travel agent, since as per 30 ROCK that’s still technically a thing. Maybe it’s language lessons. Maybe I call myself a life coach upon figuring “consultant” looks a little too vague on a business card. > > Point is, there’s a sign in the front window, and a message on the answering machine; a website’s up and running, and, well, is it a crime that I’m awful at my job? Well, if you present it as your job to the zoning authorities, but aren’t claiming it as such for the purposes of licensing and taxation then, yeah, that probably is a crime or at least an evictable offense. This can actually be a non-hypothetical problem for bands who want to rent out practice space. Being in a residential or mixed zoned area usually runs afoul of noise regulations, but some zoning laws make it so a bunch of random people off the street can’t just rent an office or warehouse space to hang out and jam in. Sometimes the solution is making the band itself a buisiness, but that can be a big hassle and/or expense for a bunch of folks who just want to make some noise. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951/40 "2013-04-29T23:15:46Z")
There are game stores whose primary purpose is for a space for a group to play games – selling any is very low on the priority list. Brian [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/business-thats-a-front-but-not-for-crime/656951.md?page=3)