# But is it proper English? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 27, 1999, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534 "1999-05-27T20:26:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/1 "1999-05-27T20:26:00Z")
I just wrote two movie reviews on my friend Spedrick’s web site. I won’t plug the URL here, but you can find it in the “Interesting Websites” thread in the MPSIMS forum. Anyway, Spedrick liked my reviews but did not like my tendency to start sentences with “but”. I hear and read sentences all the time that begin with “but”, so I think it’s all right. But enough about what I think, what do the Teeming Millions think? * * * “Interested in fashion, Harmonica?” “There were three dusters like these waiting for a train. Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were three bullets…” –_ **Once Upon A Time In The West** _ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/2 "1999-05-27T20:43:00Z")
But that would be bad grammer. And you should never start a sentence with a conjuction. Nor should you ever take an editor seriously. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/3 "1999-05-27T20:43:00Z")
I say screw these anal retentive English majors and start your sentences with whatever word you want. As long as you get your point across, who really cares? * * * You want to go one on one with The Great One? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/4 "1999-05-27T20:56:00Z")
Of course it’s not proper English. Starting a sentence with “but” or “and” makes it a run on sentence. But I do it occasionly anyway. It’s an effective tool when writing with a conversational tone. It allows you to make a point, then soften it with a counterexample. Use it sparingly. On the other hand, here are some grammatical mistakes that really do bug me: it’s vs. its - the first is a contraction of “it is”, the second a possessive pronoun. You know which one you mean, so just spell it that way. your vs. you’re - as in “You’re driving me crazy with your solecisms.” their, there, they’re - as in “They’re sure that there are no airbags in their car.” a lot - is two words irregardless - is not even one For some reason, even I confuse these things when writing e-mail. Maybe that’s why it bothers me so much. Thanks for giving me a chance to vent! ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/5 "1999-05-27T21:07:00Z")
Can you appreciate the irony? **I’m** the English major! * * * “Interested in fashion, Harmonica?” “There were three dusters like these waiting for a train. Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were three bullets…” –_ **Once Upon A Time In The West** _ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/6 "1999-05-27T21:08:00Z")
According to a graduate-level writing course I took through work (with a prof. from the local university), it’s perfectly fine to start a sentence with the word, “but.” It’s just one of those rules that they drum into you in grammar school, but it doesn’t mean anything in the real world. * * * “It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/7 "1999-05-27T21:11:00Z")
My favorite pet peeves are using an apostrophe for plurals, and using quotes to show emphasis. Example: ``` Sale! "Fresh" apple's ``` ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/8 "1999-05-27T21:13:00Z")
True story: Lou Pinella (I don’t remember who he was managing at the time) went out to argue a called third strike with an umpire. Here’s the conversation… Pinella: “Where the hell was that pitch at?” Umpire: “Don’t you know you’re not supposed to end a sentence in a preposition?” Pinella: “Ok, fine, where the hell was that pitch at, asshole?” ## Ahh… baseball. You want to go one on one with The Great One? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/9 "1999-05-27T21:15:00Z")
I heard that someone once asked Winston Churchill about ending a sentence with a preposition, and he responded, “That is the sort of pedantic nonsense up with which I shall not put!” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/10 "1999-05-27T22:06:00Z")
We’re getting off the original topic, but I must add my $.02. The one common phrase that really upsets me is: “The thing is, is that…” First of all, does one have to use the word “thing?” Can’t one substitute a more appropriate noun. “The problem is…” What really pisses me off is that second “is.” What is the point of it??? Just leave it out!!! “The thing is that…” You’d be doing less work and it would improve the sentence dramatically. Using “but” or “and” at the beginning of a sentence is fine with me; actually it is often useful to express the idea, and is often necessary for the segue from one sentence to the next. If you connected every clause that starts with “but” or “and,” you’d really have a run-on sentence. * * * I don’t know who first said “everyone’s a critic,” but I think it’s a really stupid saying. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/11 "1999-05-27T23:07:00Z")
As an English major you should know the difference between formal and informal writing styles. Movie reviews don’t strike me as terribly formal, so I think you’re allowed to bend the rules a bit. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/12 "1999-05-27T23:19:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I say screw these anal retentive English majors Speaking as one of the above-mentioned English majors, I must insist that this occur on a one-at-a-time basis and all those involved employ adequate protection. I must also protest the use of the term “anal retentive” on the grounds that I have never used that particular part of my anatomy to retain anything of value to anyone else, and should therefore not be criticized on that basis. Should you wish to re-evaluate your choice of witty criticisms, I would suggest perhaps “pedantic” or possibly “humourless”. To be strictly correct, but lacking in venom, you might wish to use “overly formal”, but even one of the rectally repressive can recognize that such wording would be unsatisfying at best. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/13 "1999-05-27T23:24:00Z")
Oh yeah, and Edward, it is grammatically incorrect to start a sentence with “but”. Aseymayo has a point about the formal/informal language use, however I personally feel that those of us who CAN use the language properly should do so whenever possible, to set an example for those who are obviously deficient in that area. You wouldn’t like to have “yeah, well you started a sentence with ‘but’ last week” come back at you after gently correcting someone else’s grammar (or, say, use of accents in French words), would you? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/14 "1999-05-27T23:26:00Z")
Not being an english major, I do know that the word BUT can be a(n): conjunction preposition adverb pronoun noun Thus, you can pretty much put it anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/15 "1999-05-27T23:46:00Z")
Touché, Eris. I **was** nitpicking when I mentioned the French accents–just because **I** use the accents when I write the words does not mean it’s unacceptable to omit them when you are writing in English. If we were writing in French (which I do not know), then it **would** be a grammatical mistake. As it is, busting your chops about the accents makes less sense than complaining about the buts. Speaking of accents, it’s a bigger problem in that the Anglophone media here refuses to write accents for Spanish words. It’s not a big deal to write México as Mexico, but it **is** if you write “¡Felíz año nuevo!” as “Feliz ano nuevo!” Instead of saying “Happy New Year!” you’re saying “Happy New Ass!” * * * “Interested in fashion, Harmonica?” “There were three dusters like these waiting for a train. Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were three bullets…” –_ **Once Upon A Time In The West** _ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/16 "1999-05-27T23:48:00Z")
Oops! Felíz is wrong, but feliz is correct. * * * “Interested in fashion, Harmonica?” “There were three dusters like these waiting for a train. Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were three bullets…” –_ **Once Upon A Time In The West** _ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/17 "1999-05-27T23:48:00Z")
But of course. No problema in casual writing styles, as has already been pointed out, and even less of a problem when speaking. If I can add to Greg’s list of things that irk me, I constantly hear people trying to “fancy” their spoken English by using the reflexive pronoun _myself_ in place of _me_. E.g.: > [@](#): > > …please don’t hesitate to speak to myself directly or my assistant if you need any help… My boss does this in meetings all the time, and then wonders why half the people in the room roll their eyes at him. I ask him “how am I supposed to speak to yourself?” but it doesn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 1999, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/18 "1999-05-27T23:50:00Z")
Handy, I like you, but I have to say that people who read the first line in a dictionary definition of a word just to see in what categorizations that word can be placed, and then proclaim that it can be put just about anywhere, really ought to be shot. CONTEXT, buddy. Language is all about context. You cannot put “but” just about anywhere. Read the whole definition next time. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 1999, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/19 "1999-05-28T00:09:00Z")
Ed, I don’t think the tilde is considered an accent (even though it means accent in Spanish, boy does that hurt my case), maybe diacritical mark is more accurate? N and ñ are two different letters (they each have their own personal entries in dictionaries). The distinction was made clear to me many years ago when I was learning Vietnamese- all of the following are considered separate letters: a, â, â (with the “hat” inverted), e, ê, i, o, ô, o (with a little squiggle that I can’t find in my character map), u and u (again with the squiggle)- making 11 different vowels in all. Same with Gh, kh, ng and others being considered single consonants, even though they are made from two symbols. I imagine it’s the same deal with L and LL in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 1999, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534/20 "1999-05-28T00:43:00Z")
You’re right–ñ is a different letter than n, but my brain thinks it’s the same letter with a funny mark over it and a different pronunciation. The only time I have to think of ñ, ll, rr, or ch as separate letters is when I’m looking up words in a Spanish dictionary. * * * “Interested in fashion, Harmonica?” “There were three dusters like these waiting for a train. Inside the dusters were three men. Inside the men were three bullets…” –_ **Once Upon A Time In The West** _ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-is-it-proper-english/534.md?page=2)