# But it was it "technically" rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003 "2002-12-11T14:42:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/1 "2002-12-11T14:42:15Z")
From [This news article](http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=1884551) > [@](#): > > Tue December 10, 2002 04:47 PM ET > PORT OF SPAIN, Trinidad (Reuters) - A Trinidadian man who claimed to be a psychic was convicted of rape and larceny after conning a woman into having sex with him and giving him her jewelry in cleansing rituals. > A jury found Roy Dubay, 57, guilty on Monday. It was the fourth trial against Dubay, who introduced himself to his victim as a psychic from Suriname. Jurors in two trials failed to reach unanimous verdicts and a third trial was aborted when his lawyer fell ill. > > Prosecutor Narissa Ramsundar told the court that in January 1995, Dubay walked up to his victim, now 29, and told her he had supernatural powers and that she would die in nine days. > > Dubay threw a bottle of fizzed water on a piece of paper, crumpled it and then opened it to reveal “a face of a devil on it,” the woman told the court. > > Dubay told the frightened woman he had to perform rituals to get the devil out of her system and took her to a hotel where they stripped naked and engaged in sexual intercourse, the woman testified. > > She said Dubay told her the sex was part of the life-saving ritual. She also gave him her jewelry which he claimed he wanted to cleanse. Police arrested Dubay when he failed to meet with his victim to return her jewelry. > > Although the sex act was consensual, Dubay was charged with rape because of his fraudulent story. Checking on Merriam-Webster… (italics mine) > [@](#): > > 2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or _deception_ I never realised deception was a part of it? So does that mean the bloke I shagged who told me he was the king of Luxemburg acutally raped me? (well, I wouldn’t have given consent if he was a lowly commoner). Dubay is definately guilty of being a lying arsehole? But does it make him a rapist? [sub]Mods - Is this more appropriate in the pit?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/2 "2002-12-11T14:48:09Z")
I don’t think this qualifies as rape, per se. I think Fraud is more like it… ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/3 "2002-12-11T14:54:21Z")
I gotta teach myself that devil-face-fizz-water-paper trick. You know what they say…If you try the D.F.F.W.P.T. on enough women, you’ll eventually get one who will fall for it. ---
**Author:** ![lovelyluka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@lovelyluka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lovelyluka)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/4 "2002-12-11T14:55:28Z")
it’s definitely some sort of sexual violation…It’s not what I’d call rape if I didn’t know that definition, but it’s something. On the other hand, lying to have sex is a crime now? These people need to come to college campuses. Particularly mine. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/5 "2002-12-11T14:58:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NurseCarmen \* > \*\*I gotta teach myself that devil-face-fizz-water-paper trick. You know what they say…If you try the D.F.F.W.P.T. on enough women, you’ll eventually get one who will fall for it. \*\* Why not just tell them that you got a new way to take their medication. What with you being a nurse… “Relax lady, it gets into the blood stream quicker this way, now if we just shake it about a bit, make sure its allllll the way in” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/6 "2002-12-11T15:01:30Z")
I guess deception would come into play if it was a twin brother pretending to really be your husband, that sort of thing. I gather here the deception was that he claimed it was needed to save her life, and I’d agree with **lovelyluka** , it does look like some kind of sexual violation. What I don’t get is the comment about it being the “fourth trial” against him - were the others mistrials for the same case, or had he done this before? I don’t think that more commonplace lying about your background/job/etc. to get sex would be rape, though. (Didn’t we have a thread about a case like that not too long ago, where a guy was claiming to be someone important to get women to sleep with him?) ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/7 "2002-12-11T15:07:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferret Herder \* > \*\*What I don’t get is the comment about it being the “fourth trial” against him - were the others mistrials for the same case, or had he done this before? > \*\* I took it to mean mistrials for the same case, not 4 seperate offenses. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/8 "2002-12-11T15:08:01Z")
I don’t know if you guys know this but I’m the heiress to the li’l tykes toy fortune. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/9 "2002-12-11T15:08:06Z")
Maybe there could be a “sexual coercion” statute. It could be distinct from “rape” by the test of physical force or the threat of physical violence, but it could include using someone’s fear of death or other serious consequence to make them desperate enough to have sex with you. And anyone seriously offering sex as a “remedy”, especially for something that they themselves diagnosed - whether disease or spiritual possession - should be prosecuted for fraud. But I guess these things would be hard to convict on. IANAL though. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_Nazi\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/db5fbb/32.png) [@Soup\_Nazi\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_Nazi_1)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/10 "2002-12-11T15:11:36Z")
It’s definitely not rape… this is another cop out to get back it someone who did her wrong by mangling the semantics to fit her scheme of revenge. She was gullible, she paid the price. Live and learn. She shouldn’t be creating more loop holes in the system for future money-grubbers to misuse. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/11 "2002-12-11T15:18:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*I don’t know if you guys know this but I’m the heiress to the li’l tykes toy fortune. \*\* I… I love you! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/12 "2002-12-11T15:18:34Z")
Well the story says > [@](#): > > Although the sex act was **consensual** The definition says > [@](#): > > 2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man **without her consent** and chiefly by force or deception The sex was consensual so no rape. Lying bastard? Yes. Rapist ? No. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/13 "2002-12-11T15:20:05Z")
I think this opens a few random thoughts: We should dismiss the M-W definition, as this is merely a guideline, not a legal definition. Secondly, the definition of “rape” will differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Next, the “deception” angle - would this then apply to women conning men into having sex, since there is no forced violation? I think this indicates that the legal definition in this case is too wide (IIRC, in the UK, a man who pinches a lady’s bottom can be convicted of “sexual assault”, as can a man who violates a woman with a broken bottle). Now, pass me that bottle of Evian and that notepad, will you? ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/14 "2002-12-11T15:26:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*The sex was consensual so no rape. Lying bastard? Yes. Rapist ? No. \*\* But would she have given her consent if he hadden’t convinced her that it was the only thing that could save her life? I think probably not. So, does him knowing that she wouldn’t have sex with him under normal circumstances and him engineering a state in which she would have sex with him make him a rapist? Can you compaire it to a date-rape drug? The man new she wouldn’t consent unless…? ---
**Author:** ![iconoplast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3d9bf3/32.png) [@iconoplast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iconoplast)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/15 "2002-12-11T15:38:31Z")
It’s still sexual assault. The man engineered a situation in which to have sex with someone who would not have otherwise, which still satisfies the definition in most jurisdictions. (As far as being convicted for sexual assault for pinching someone’s bottom vs. for violating someone with a bottle, at least in Colorado it’s vastly different penalties/charges, and I would assume likewise elsewhere. They’re both termed sexual assault, however.) And from the quoted portion of the article, “Jurors in two trials failed to reach unanimous verdicts and a third trial was aborted when his lawyer fell ill.” So it was the fourth trial on this charge. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/16 "2002-12-11T15:46:51Z")
> [@](#): > > So, does him knowing that she wouldn’t have sex with him under normal circumstances and him engineering a state in which she would have sex with him make him a rapist? to a lesser degree than the OP this happens in bars all around the world every night. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/17 "2002-12-11T15:46:56Z")
> [@](#): > > **The man engineered a situation in which to have sex with someone who would not have otherwise, which still satisfies the definition in most jurisdictions.** How about misrepresenting yourself. You meet a woman who likes racing drivers. You lie about your involvement with Formula 1. She ends up in bed with you. Rape? You are a selfish bastard. You meet a woman and pretend to be a nice guy. She ends up in bed with you. Sexual assault? > [@](#): > > \*\*it’s vastly different penalties/charges, and I would assume likewise elsewhere. \*\* Sure, but it’s the same thing on your rap sheet. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/18 "2002-12-11T15:48:21Z")
**yojimbo** , any more of these simulposts, and people will begin to talk! ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/19 "2002-12-11T15:54:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\ ***yojimbo** , any more of these simulposts, and people will begin to talk! \*\* Ahhh, so you’re admitting there **is** something going on then? hmmm? I knew it! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/20 "2002-12-11T15:58:41Z")
At least I’m always on top 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003.md?page=2)