# But it was it "technically" rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 11, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003 "2002-12-11T14:42:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/21 "2002-12-11T16:03:33Z")
Okay. Situation 1: Rape. Man tells woman he’ll kill her if she doesn’t have sex with him in order to get her to have sex with him. Situation 2: Not Rape. Man tells woman he is a race car driver in order to get her to agree to have sex. I think this situation is closer to situation 1 as there is the fear of death involved. ---
**Author:** ![iconoplast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3d9bf3/32.png) [@iconoplast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iconoplast)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/22 "2002-12-11T16:13:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **How about misrepresenting yourself. You meet a woman who likes racing drivers. You lie about your involvement with Formula 1. She ends up in bed with you. Rape? \ You are a selfish bastard. You meet a woman and pretend to be a nice guy. She ends up in bed with you. Sexual assault?** Maybe. In Colorado, the first definition of sexual assault is: > [@](#): > > The actor causes submission of the victim by means of sufficient consequence reasonably calculated to cause submission against the victim’s will I think in the case we’re discussing, that would apply (in short, what he said was, you’re going to die if you don’t have sex with me). In your example, not really. It’s dishonest, and morally lacking, but I don’t think it’s sexual assault in a legal sense. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > Sure, but it’s the same thing on your rap sheet. Far from it. Using Colorado law again as an example, we find: > [@](#): > > Unlawful sexual contact is a class 1 misdemeanor, but it is a class 4 felony if the actor compels the victim to submit by use of such force, intimidation, or threat as specified… as compared to > [@](#): > > Sexual assault is a class 4 felony, except as provided in subsections… (in short, it’s a misdemeanor if it’s statutory, and a higher grade of felony if you use weapons, cause serious injury, or involve more people.) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/23 "2002-12-11T16:28:48Z")
Re. the rap sheet - fair enough - UK law is far less indicative AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![iconoplast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3d9bf3/32.png) [@iconoplast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iconoplast)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/24 "2002-12-11T16:35:18Z")
Hey, no worries. Since I know next to nothing about UK law, I’ll leave that for someone more knowledgeable. If it’s the case the they aren’t very differentiated, then I’ll agree that change is needed, but I still feel that it’s appropriate to have some sort of penalty for a “bad touch,” as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/25 "2002-12-11T18:02:16Z")
I’d have to agree that this is rape because there was the false threat of death. If a man held a woman at gunpoint with an unloaded or fake gun, and made her give him sexual favors, it’s rape. This situation is much less violent, and she shouldn’t have believed him, but she was still given a threat to her life. Simply lying about your personal situation (I’m rich, baby! I’m the CEO!), isn’t rape, because the partner wasn’t coerced. It is highly immoral, however. ---
**Author:** ![iconoplast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3d9bf3/32.png) [@iconoplast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iconoplast)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/26 "2002-12-11T18:11:26Z")
I think that you could argue that lying about one’s personal situation is coercion of a sort, though compel might be more apt in this case. All the same, I think I’m in the minority on this one, and I’m not sure that I really want to go start a GD thread on it. So for now, I’ll stick with saying that just lying to get sex isn’t sexual assault in a legal sense, and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/27 "2002-12-11T19:01:39Z")
It was definitely rape, because of the threat of death. We need to have a very plain and simple sex abuse law against any man lying, or misrepresenting himself, just to get into womens pants. Using fraud to commit a sex act, should be treated under the law, for what it is, a sex crime. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/28 "2002-12-11T20:40:10Z")
_Dubay walked up to his victim, now 29, and told her he had supernatural powers and that she would die in nine days._ It’s hard for me to see how this could fit into the definition of rape in countries that have modern education. The story would be considered preposterous. If in Trinidad such things are commonly believed in, perhaps it could be considered rape by deception. But apparently two juries so far haven’t seen it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/29 "2002-12-11T20:58:29Z")
We’ve discussed similar stuff before. See [Could this be considered a form of rape?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94643) ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/30 "2002-12-11T21:48:41Z")
Interestingly, we covered something like this in my torts class, albeit from the question of a civil violation, not criminal. Judge Posner gave some interesting analysis on consent using two examples: A) Man hires prostitute; pays with $100 bill that he knows is counterfeit. B) Doctor has sex with patient under pretense of rendering medical treatment He says that the first is fraud, but not a battery. The woman wants to have sex; she just wants to get paid for it. In the second, the woman doesn’t want sex, she wants medical treatment. The question is, what situations does B cover? Rape while under anesthesia, certainly. But what about the therapist who tells his patient that her relationship problems are caused by unreleased sexual tension, which she can cure by having sex with him? She wants medical treatment, but she understands that she is having sex. Anyway, in this case, I say it is rape. If a man poisons a woman, and then says he’ll only give her the antidote if she has sex with him, that’s rape. If he makes her believe that he has poisoned her (although he hasn’t), it’s still rape. This is pretty much what the guy has done here. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/31 "2002-12-11T22:13:14Z")
“If you don’t have sex with me something will kill you in 9 days.” How is that different from: “If you don’t have sex with me I will kill you in 9 days”? The woman consented to sex because the man made her fear for her life. The law doesn’t care whether the gun was empty or not. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/32 "2002-12-11T22:27:53Z")
Devil’s advocate: He claimed that if she didn’t have sex with him she would die in 9 days. She had sex with him. She didn’t die. Prove that he lied. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/33 "2002-12-11T23:33:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\*Devil’s advocate: > > He claimed that if she didn’t have sex with him she would die in 9 days. > > She had sex with him. > > She didn’t die. > > Prove that he lied. \*\* Good point. The authorities seem educated enough to know it’s horsecrap, but apparently believe the general public is not. Presumably the folks on the juries were split between those who know better and think she should have known better, those who know better but didn’t expect her to, and perhaps those who don’t know better and believe him. Unless she’s mentally deficient, I think it comes down to whether she’s expected to see it as a scam. In the U.S., I would expect any adult to know better than to even begin to believe the kind of line she was fed. In Trinidad, it may well be different, but obviously some adults know better. ---
**Author:** ![Tir\_Tinuviel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@Tir\_Tinuviel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tir_Tinuviel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/34 "2002-12-11T23:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\*Devil’s advocate: > > He claimed that if she didn’t have sex with him she would die in 9 days. > > She had sex with him. > > She didn’t die. > > Prove that he lied. \*\* Had it just been that, there would have been no case against him, the woman would have wandered off thinking “ohh goody I aint gonna die” But he also took her jewelry to be “cleansed” and failed to return it. So if half of his story was crap, why should we believe the other half, he has already proved he cant be trusted by failing to return the jewelry. Silly boy, he might have been onto a good thing otherwise… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Iguana\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@Iguana\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iguana_Boy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/35 "2002-12-12T00:50:31Z")
Not rape in Scotland. Rape here is sexual intercourse without the consent of the woman. (The definition is a little more complicated, but I am focusing on the “consent” element for this discussion) There need not be force. If deception was involved but the sex was still consensual, it is not rape. And I cannot pass up the opportunity to mention the old joke - It was rape! The cheque bounced… ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/36 "2002-12-12T05:40:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary T \* > \*\*_Dubay walked up to his victim, now 29, and told her he had supernatural powers and that she would die in nine days._ > > It’s hard for me to see how this could fit into the definition of rape in countries that have modern education. The story would be considered preposterous. > \*\* This makes we wonder, are there stricter laws against violating the mentally impared? I know in the US drunks are protected, but what about people with low intelligence? It doesn’t seem right that you would only be protected from your own stupidity if you had control over it. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/37 "2002-12-12T06:33:01Z")
The famous three words: “I love you” have probably been used more than any other to get someone into bed. A lot of times, the person didn’t ACTUALLY love the other person, and just wanted to get into her pants. How do you prove fraud? ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/38 "2002-12-12T07:26:14Z")
Am I the only one who mis-read the guy’s name as Dubya? If the woman isn’t mentally retarded, I have to say not rape. Fraud, yes, but not rape. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/39 "2002-12-12T11:19:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > How about misrepresenting yourself. You meet a woman who likes racing drivers. You lie about your involvement with Formula 1. She ends up in bed with you. Rape? It’s more like telling a woman you are the boss of a gang, and unless she sleeps with you Bad Things Will Happen. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003/40 "2002-12-12T13:17:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > \*\*It’s more like telling a woman you are the boss of a gang, and unless she sleeps with you Bad Things Will Happen. \*\* I disagree, since apparently the guy didn’t tell she had used some sorcery on her, but that she was the victim of some sorcery, and that he was going to help her out. Well…That’s how I understood the story, but rereading the OP, it’s not clearly stated if he said he had used sorcery on her which would result in her dying soon or if he said she was the victim of someone else (or of a devil) and that she needed help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-it-was-it-technically-rape/142003.md?page=3)