# But...Obama Was Going To Take All The Guns! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 16, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405 "2013-01-16T18:23:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/421 "2013-02-01T17:13:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not interested in making any such case, and I am not likely to wet myself in the presence of weapons, scary or otherwise. It isn’t important whether or not a fair case could have been made to ban the Tommy gun during Prohibition. The fact remains that it _was_ effectively banned as a matter of law. So, gun rights can be infringed. Because they have been. Let me know if I’m going too fast for you, here. OK, so if you need me to denounce the gun nuts who think that the right o have whatever guns they want is absolute then here goes… you ready??? Those guys are nucking futz. All the amendments are subject to reasonable interpretation. But we have no more “nullfies” the second amendment than we have the first amendment. The standard for passing constitutional muster isn’t “reasonable and responsible” There has to be at leasta significant state interest and the numbers do not support the notion that there is a significant state interest in banning assault weapons (and I am not aware of any data that supports the notion that there is a significant state interest in banning high cap mags). I think there IS a significant state interest in reducing gun violence so I think national registration, licensing and universal background checks (as part of the licensing procedure) are not only acceptable but desirable methods of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals but the constitutionality of banning assault weapons and high cap mags is less clear. > [@](#): > > What an interesting topic for conversation! Perhaps another time? My only beef was the use of the “reasonable and responsible” standard of constitutional review. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/422 "2013-02-01T20:21:57Z")
The standard is applicable to the laws and regulations which the Constitution may, in theory, forbid. But as a practical fact, does not. And, of course, “significant state interest” is in the mind of the beholder. In my personal memory, it was offered that the state has a significant interest in preventing the mongrelization of the races. If I were to guess, I would guess that the AWB will not pass, or will be passed in such a weakened form as to be meaningless. And that will be all for now. Until something happens again. I would be very pleasantly surprised if it does not, but that’s part of being a pessimist, we love surprises. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/423 "2013-02-02T01:20:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The standard is applicable to the laws and regulations which the Constitution may, in theory, forbid. But as a practical fact, does not. And, of course, “significant state interest” is in the mind of the beholder. In my personal memory, it was offered that the state has a significant interest in preventing the mongrelization of the races. > > If I were to guess, I would guess that the AWB will not pass, or will be passed in such a weakened form as to be meaningless. And that will be all for now. Until something happens again. I would be very pleasantly surprised if it does not, but that’s part of being a pessimist, we love surprises. Frankly you should be rooting for more meaningful reform like licensing and registration. It is less noxious to the run of the mill gun owner (the gun nuts are going to resist everything so there is really no point listening to them, their obstinacy should make them irrelevant) and it has real beneficial effects on gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/424 "2013-02-02T01:36:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It isn’t important whether or not a fair case could have been made to ban the Tommy gun during Prohibition. The fact remains that it _was_ effectively banned as a matter of law. So, gun rights can be infringed. Because they have been. Let me know if I’m going too fast for you, here. Then since the Alien and Sedition Acts passed in 1798, making even private criticism of the government a crime, then I suppose we just have to accept that freedom of speech and of the press can be revoked at any time? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/425 "2013-02-02T02:09:52Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > That’s how it [works at the moment](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/08/us-usa-immigrants-guns-idUSBRE8471BP20120508). The NRA dead set on trying to arm people denied the rights of citizens? Big government seems pretty intent on either locking 'em up or kicking 'em out of the country. Can blame all our economic woes on them too. Sounds kinda familiar. That link does not mention the NRA at all. So does that mean you admit you do not have a cite that the NRA would like to treat illegal immigrants like Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/426 "2013-02-02T03:28:59Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That link does not mention the NRA at all. So does that mean you admit you do not have a cite that the NRA would like to treat illegal immigrants like Jews? Wait! Jews can’t have guns? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/427 "2013-02-02T03:54:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait! Jews can’t have guns? Well, they can have them, they just can’t carry or fire them on the Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/428 "2013-02-02T04:28:31Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Then since the Alien and Sedition Acts passed in 1798, making even private criticism of the government a crime, then I suppose we just have to accept that freedom of speech and of the press can be revoked at any time? Well, sure, if The One says its necessary to ensure the imposition of _sharia_ law or forcing Eagle Scouts into gay marriages. Priorities, man, priorities! ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/429 "2013-02-02T04:42:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait! Jews can’t have guns? Sorry, I meant like Hitler treated the Jews. I think that was the point Gamerunknown was making. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/430 "2013-02-02T16:14:58Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Sorry, I meant like Hitler treated the Jews. I think that was the point Gamerunknown was making. I was just trying to be clever. I should leave that sort of shit to Elucidator. Apparently not everyone has the knack. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/431 "2013-02-02T20:27:27Z")
> [@eno801](#): > > is your friend a barber by any chance? Barba non facit custodes. Or something. > [@Kable](#): > > That link does not mention the NRA at all. So does that mean you admit you do not have a cite that the NRA would like to treat illegal immigrants like Jews? [Here](http://www.examiner.com/article/the-american-legion-and-the-nra-join-fight-against-illegal-alien-amnesty). Oh, they just want to ensure they don’t have the full rights of citizens as enumerated and that they get deported. They don’t want them extirpated. So perhaps the comparison to Nazi Germany isn’t apt, eh? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/432 "2013-02-02T21:14:47Z")
Which brings us again to the questions: Who are the real “gun nuts” and how many are there? How many of them are simply fixated on weaponry as hobbyists and _afficianados_, and how many are attracted to and attached with crazy ass movements who think _Red Dawn_ was a documentary, or at least a cautionary allegory. Keep in mind, the NRA used to be almost entirely sane, being absorbed in training youth in gun safety, marksmanship, all that sort of Boy Scout stuff. At what point did they become obsessed with protecting the home from invading marauders? And when did they become fixated on government tyranny? Did the more or less sane members become confused and disoriented, wondering what became of their Eagle Scout-type organization? How much did the Black Panthers and Malcolm X affect their sensibility? Or the riots and disorder of Watts, etc.? As a kid, I attended NRA shooting things, I don’t recall any particular political persuasion being invoked. Of course, to be fair, at that point in my life I was just to the left of Bismarck, and might not even have noticed. In my estimation, matters of gun control and regulation does not have any “natural” political component, any more than speed limits on the highway. I remember when Poppy Bush resigned the NRA in disgust at their refusal to condemn the insane gibberish of G. Gordon Liddy, but don’t recall how many followed in his wake. When did the NRA go nuts? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/433 "2013-02-02T22:13:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Which brings us again to the questions: Who are the real “gun nuts” and how many are there? How many of them are simply fixated on weaponry as hobbyists and _afficianados_, and how many are attracted to and attached with crazy ass movements who think _Red Dawn_ was a documentary, or at least a cautionary allegory. > > Keep in mind, the NRA used to be almost entirely sane, being absorbed in training youth in gun safety, marksmanship, all that sort of Boy Scout stuff. At what point did they become obsessed with protecting the home from invading marauders? And when did they become fixated on government tyranny? Did the more or less sane members become confused and disoriented, wondering what became of their Eagle Scout-type organization? > > How much did the Black Panthers and Malcolm X affect their sensibility? Or the riots and disorder of Watts, etc.? As a kid, I attended NRA shooting things, I don’t recall any particular political persuasion being invoked. Of course, to be fair, at that point in my life I was just to the left of Bismarck, and might not even have noticed. > > In my estimation, matters of gun control and regulation does not have any “natural” political component, any more than speed limits on the highway. I remember when Poppy Bush resigned the NRA in disgust at their refusal to condemn the insane gibberish of G. Gordon Liddy, but don’t recall how many followed in his wake. When did the NRA go nuts? There was a change in 1974 at the NRA. The inmates took over the asylum that year. As has been mentioned countless times most NRA members support uni ersal background checks and I think would also be open to universal registration and licensing. But the current NRA leadership relies on a small population of hyperactive members for their million dollar a year salaries. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/434 "2013-02-03T00:13:20Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Oh, they just want to ensure they don’t have the full rights of citizens as enumerated and that they get deported. They don’t want them extirpated. So perhaps the comparison to Nazi Germany isn’t apt, eh? I don’t see the NRA say that in your link either. Did I miss it or are you trying to pull a fast one? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/435 "2013-02-03T00:41:00Z")
Oh, a slow one will probably do just fine. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/436 "2013-02-03T00:43:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait! Jews can’t have guns? A lesser man would make a retail/wholesale joke here, but not I. Never. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/437 "2013-02-03T10:44:19Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Also are you suggesting that Hitler really didn’t benefit from gun control, and he really didn’t forbid Jews from owning any guns before he killed them? Because that’s all kind of relevant to the debate. So much so, they make bumper stickers about it. Ok, so supporting any form of gun control warrants comparison to Hitler. > [@gamerunknown](#): > > Hitler expanded gun rights for most citizens and restricted sale and manufacture by Jews. Replace Jews with illegal immigrants and the NRA would leap at the proposal in the US. The NRA would be fine with limiting sale and manufacture of guns within the US by illegal immigrants, just as Nazi party members were fine with limiting sale and manufacture by Jews (not treated as real citizens). I shouldn’t said that the NRA would leap at the proposal, since only one half of that proposal would be a deviation from extant legislation (expanding gun rights for citizens). No sale and manufacture (or even legal ownership) of guns by illegal immigrants is in fact status quo. > [@Kable](#): > > Cite? > [@gamerunknown](#): > > That’s how it [works at the moment](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/08/us-usa-immigrants-guns-idUSBRE8471BP20120508). The NRA dead set on trying to arm people denied the rights of citizens? Big government seems pretty intent on either locking 'em up or kicking 'em out of the country. Can blame all our economic woes on them too. Sounds kinda familiar. > [@Kable](#): > > That link does not mention the NRA at all. So does that mean you admit you do not have a cite that the NRA would like to treat illegal immigrants like Jews? Note that I was discussing two very limited spheres of comparison: sale and manufacturing of guns, which you already felt were broad enough to warrant comparison to Hitler. I think such a comparison is ludicrous, but it’s easy enough to demonstrate that the NRA supports limitations on the sale and manufacture of guns too. > [@gamerunknown](#): > > [Here](http://www.examiner.com/article/the-american-legion-and-the-nra-join-fight-against-illegal-alien-amnesty). Oh, they just want to ensure they don’t have the full rights of citizens as enumerated and that they get deported. They don’t want them extirpated. So perhaps the comparison to Nazi Germany isn’t apt, eh? > [@Kable](#): > > I don’t see the NRA say that in your link either. Did I miss it or are you trying to pull a fast one? Judicial precedent has indicated that certain constitutional rights only apply to US citizens, including that of the second amendment. So by definition, opposing the right of illegal immigrants to reside as citizens in the US means restricting their right to own guns and to exercise one of the rights enumerated by the constitution. [Here](http://www.meetthenra.org/nra-member/Wayne%20LaPierre) is another bit by LaPierre opposing immigration. > [@LaPierre](#): > > Now connect the dots to another key assault on our freedom. Aligned with the Department of Homeland Security, Obama’s top federal law enforcement leaders are refusing to enforce immigration laws to stem the tide of hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, potential illegal voters ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/438 "2013-02-03T13:36:51Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Ok, so supporting any form of gun control warrants comparison to Hitler. I judge that on a case by case basis. > [@](#): > > The NRA would be fine with limiting sale and manufacture of guns within the US by illegal immigrants, just as Nazi party members were fine with limiting sale and manufacture by Jews (not treated as real citizens). I shouldn’t said that the NRA would leap at the proposal, since only one half of that proposal would be a deviation from extant legislation (expanding gun rights for citizens). No sale and manufacture (or even legal ownership) of guns by illegal immigrants is in fact status quo. The status quo isn’t really an NRA platform. I think however that you would demonize the NRA better, and your analogy would be more apt, if they said they were against hispanics owning guns, rather than illegal immigrants. Neither of which however, it appears they do. > [@](#): > > Judicial precedent has indicated that certain constitutional rights only apply to US citizens, including that of the second amendment. So by definition, opposing the right of illegal immigrants to reside as citizens in the US means restricting their right to own guns and to exercise one of the rights enumerated by the constitution. [Here](http://www.meetthenra.org/nra-member/Wayne%20LaPierre) is another bit by LaPierre opposing immigration. Again you are full of crap. Wayne isn’t opposing immigration he’s just commenting on current laws regarding “illegal” immigration, and his comments have nothing to do with your original statement that you are struggling to support. My guess is Wayne probably thinks everyone should have a gun, legal or not. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/439 "2013-02-03T14:21:35Z")
Me and my buddy Wayne were just rappin’ about this whole gun thing. He let me in on his feelings about immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405/440 "2013-02-03T14:43:13Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Me and my buddy Wayne were just rappin’ about this whole gun thing. He let me in on his feelings about immigration. Really, what did he say? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-obama-was-going-to-take-all-the-guns/647405.md?page=23)