# But \*why\* are chimps so much stronger than humans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 10, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114 "2008-11-10T23:01:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/1 "2008-11-10T23:01:16Z")
referring to [this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2/can-a-90-lb-chimp-clobber-a-full-grown-man) Humans and chimps have a common ancestor. And I would have guessed increased strength would provide a survival advantage for both. So why the difference in their evolution? Just chance? Or was their some benefit to humans in _not_ getting that strong? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/2 "2008-11-10T23:30:03Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > And I would have guessed increased strength would provide a survival advantage for both. First, additional strength comes with costs, such as loss of manual dexterity, or ability to stand upright, or requiring more food to support. Secondly, increased strength may not convey any survival advantage if your rely on group coordination, cursorial hunting, or tools and agricultural. How much strength do you need to harvest a carrot? Traits like additional strength aren’t a help or a hurt until you look at the environment. And that can change over time; being large helped some dinosaurs until the environment changed and they couldn’t. A human most important tool is his/her brain. It was much more advantageous to follow the route of communication, coordination and invention instead of trying to out-compete other animals by strength. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/3 "2008-11-11T00:18:44Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > First, additional strength comes with costs, such as loss of manual dexterity, or ability to stand upright, or requiring more food to support. I’ve heard that as speculation before, but has anyone every proved it ? The other theory I’ve heard is that we lost the strength for the same reason domestic animals tend to be stupider than wild ones : dependency upon our intelligence. When a faculty is unused, genetic drift tends to cause it to wither; like with cave fish and their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/4 "2008-11-12T00:12:06Z")
I recall a show about Neanderthals on Discovery that said that while Homo Neanderthalis was quite muscular and an effective hunter in groups, Homo Sapiens were more adept at storing body fat, which gave them an advantage during lean times and in certain habitats. As for chimps, you’d be pretty muscular yourself if you used your arms as much as they do. And their 90 pound frame has very little fat on it. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/5 "2008-11-12T00:36:56Z")
I’ve read (no cites, sorry) that a lot of it has to do with leverage. A chimp’s muscles attach much further away from the joint than ours do. This means that, for any given muscle contraction, the force on the end is increased at the expense of distance. Which makes chimps excellent for tearing, pulling, and lifting, but horrible at throwing. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/6 "2008-11-12T00:47:05Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > IWhich makes chimps excellent for tearing, pulling, and lifting, but horrible at throwing. That little bastard at the Little Rock Zoo nailed Mrs. Plant. Fortunately all he had was a dirt clod. Of course, he may have been aiming at one of the hecklers…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/7 "2008-11-12T02:23:20Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > I’ve read (no cites, sorry) that a lot of it has to do with leverage. A chimp’s muscles attach much further away from the joint than ours do. This means that, for any given muscle contraction, the force on the end is increased at the expense of distance. Which makes chimps excellent for tearing, pulling, and lifting, but horrible at throwing. More leverage, with reduced speed and range of motion. Human physiology is much more versatile. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/8 "2008-11-12T02:32:57Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > A chimp’s muscles attach much further away from the joint than ours do. This means that, for any given muscle contraction, the force on the end is increased at the expense of distance. Which makes chimps excellent for tearing, pulling, and lifting, but horrible at throwing. Perhaps I misunderstand, but I would think they would be able to throw better, like a spear thrower, or those things Mrs. Plant uses to throw tennis balls for her dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/9 "2008-11-12T13:17:22Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps I misunderstand, but I would think they would be able to throw better, like a spear thrower, or those things Mrs. Plant uses to throw tennis balls for her dogs. Sort of the opposite. Those devices use a relatively long resistance arm, for speed and range of motion at the expense of force; a chimp’s arms have a relatively short resistance arm, for force at the expense of speed and range of motion. ETA: It’s a lot easier to explain and understand this stuff with diagrams, and especially animation. I can’t look at work, but I bet there’s something on YouTube that applies. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/10 "2008-11-12T21:06:16Z")
to demonstrate this, try opening/closing a door by pushing near the hinges vs. pushing near the handle (furthest away from the hinges). You could even have a “contest” between a child pushing at the handle, and an adult pushing near the hinges (on the opposite side of the door), and I’m betting the child would win. Now try to whether you can open the door **faster** by pushing near the middle, or by pushing near the handle/edge. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/11 "2008-11-12T22:24:31Z")
I thought from the post that chimps had longer arms rather than shorter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/12 "2008-11-12T23:56:33Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > to demonstrate this, try opening/closing a door by pushing near the hinges vs. pushing near the handle (furthest away from the hinges). You could even have a “contest” between a child pushing at the handle, and an adult pushing near the hinges (on the opposite side of the door), and I’m betting the child would win. > > Now try to whether you can open the door **faster** by pushing near the middle, or by pushing near the handle/edge. So can we outrun chimps? That would make them much less dangerous–at least on open ground. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/13 "2008-11-13T01:27:46Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > So can we outrun chimps? That would make them much less dangerous–at least on open ground. I can’t find a good cite that gives hard numbers, but chimps are much faster than we are over short distances. Most of the links I’ve found are more interested in examining whether walking upright gives humans an endurance advantage over walking quadrupedally. Best [link](http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1618507) I can find (trying to compare chimps to a model of how A. afarensis may have moved): > [@](#): > > However, the advantage to chimpanzees of increased capabilities in arboreal climbing must be taken into consideration, and chimpanzees can certainly achieve speeds in quadrupedal locomotion well in excess of the maximum speed achieved by our simulation of bipedalism in A. afarensis And here’s a prime example of why you don’t wanna [mess with a chimp](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/03/06/ferocity_of_chimpanzee_attack_stuns_medics_leaves_questions/): > [@](#): > > Davis, who remained in critical condition Friday, was badly disfigured. According to his wife, he lost all the fingers from both hands, an eye, part of his nose, cheek and lips, and part of his buttocks. His foot was mutilated and his heel bone was cracked. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/14 "2008-11-15T07:37:56Z")
As a visual aid describing how the higher apes screw us for brute strength, one of those Fox “Man vs Beast” programs show a sumo wrestler against an orangutan in a tug-o-war. The orang toyed with the human disinterstedly for a few minutes before she got the cue, then nonchalantedly pulled him off his perch. But she climbs to her bedroom with her arms. We use our legs. FTR, a zebra running against an Olympic sprinter kicked with both hind legs before the finish to show he was less than shit running against him. Wild animals have tudes. ---
**Author:** ![The-Dixie-Flatline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@The-Dixie-Flatline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The-Dixie-Flatline)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/15 "2008-11-21T23:24:18Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I can’t find a good cite that gives hard numbers, but chimps are much faster than we are over short distances. Most of the links I’ve found are more interested in examining whether walking upright gives humans an endurance advantage over walking quadrupedally. Best [link](http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1618507) I can find (trying to compare chimps to a model of how A. afarensis may have moved) How much would that have to do with modern man’s more relaxed lifestyle and use of tools? (A human hunter surely doesn’t _need_ to run that fast; an accurately thrown spear can move so much faster.) How do chimps compare with olympic sprinters for example? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/16 "2008-11-22T00:11:11Z")
> [@The-Dixie-Flatline](#): > > A human hunter surely doesn’t _need_ to run that fast; an accurately thrown spear can move so much faster. He doesn’t have to run faster than the sabre tooth tiger, just faster than one of his fellow hunters. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/17 "2008-11-22T01:25:26Z")
They’re biters, for sure. Washoe, the famous chimp who allegedly can communicate at a high level using Ameslan, bit a neurosurgeon’s finger off. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/18 "2008-11-22T01:28:27Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > They’re biters, for sure. Washoe, the famous chimp who allegedly can communicate at a high level using Ameslan, bit a neurosurgeon’s finger off. Ah! Did they ask him _why_? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/19 "2008-11-22T01:40:19Z")
It’s had to sign with a missing finger, I’d guess. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114/20 "2008-11-22T01:50:02Z")
> [@SeanArenas](#): > > It’s had to sign with a missing finger, I’d guess. Depends on which [one.](http://www.masterstech-home.com/The_Library/ASL_Dictionary_Project/ASL_Tables/W.html#Why) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/but-why-are-chimps-so-much-stronger-than-humans/472114.md?page=2)