# Butterflies' Memories
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 8, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256 "2008-12-08T16:02:56Z")
**Posts on this page:** 11
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/1 "2008-12-08T16:02:56Z")
This is a GQ, but it was prompted by a staff report [here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2801/how-exactly-does-a-caterpillar-morph-into-a-butterfly) so I provide the link for reference.
Basically, the report says that a caterpillar in a chrysalis pretty much completely disintegrates, except for a packet of larval tissue, which then assimilates the disintegrated organic matter into a butterfly.
I assume from this description that it is impossible to teach a caterpillar anything that can subsequently be remembered by the butterfly it turns into.
But I am just checking here to make sure my inference is correct. Also, to ask to what extent it applies to various metamorphosing species.
Also, does anyone ever argue that the butterfly and the caterpillar ought to be considered to be two different organisms? Not sure what the practical upshot of such a notion would be, but just curious if anyone has said it.
-FrL-
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/2 "2008-12-08T16:11:34Z")
I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to teach an insect anything at all, regardless of memory.
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### Author:  [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/3 "2008-12-08T16:14:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to teach an insect anything at all, regardless of memory.
No, you can teach them. For example, cockroaches can be given olfactory conditioning. [cite](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14709809). Though I could have sworn this was well known already, yet that study says it’s the first to show this, and it’s only from 2003.
I swear on God and Jesus that I’d read about roach olfactory conditioning way back in high school, though, so I don’t know if I’m crazy or something.
-FrL-
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/4 "2008-12-08T16:23:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to teach an insect anything at all, regardless of memory.
Incorrect. Many [insects are capable of learning,](http://college.georgetown.edu/research/30258.html) including social insects (bees, wasps, and ants) and butterflies.
However, given the very different body organization, I doubt whether a butterfly could retain anything much learned in the caterpillar form. I could imagine, though, that some preference for a particular food plant could be retained (though this could possibly be transmitted chemically rather than neurally).
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/5 "2008-12-08T16:30:04Z")
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> Incorrect. Many [insects are capable of learning,](http://college.georgetown.edu/research/30258.html) including social insects (bees, wasps, and ants) and butterflies.
Wow!
Thanks - didn’t know that.
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### Author:  [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/6 "2008-12-08T18:31:57Z")
In high school, we trained [sow bugs](http://www.cirrusimage.com/isopoda_sow_bug.htm).
Using a bright light, which they avoid, we ran the sow bugs down a T shaped ‘maze’. Ten runs or so with each bug showed that each bug preferred to turn one direction (right or left) over the other. Once we identified each bug’s tendancy, we used the light to encourage them to go the opposite way. After training, most of them tended turn the opposite direction that they had once preferred.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/7 "2008-12-08T21:57:31Z")
> [@Colibri](#):
>
> I could imagine, though, that some preference for a particular food plant could be retained (though this could possibly be transmitted chemically rather than neurally).
For one thing, the female butterfly has to know on which plants to lay her eggs, so the emerging caterpillars will be on a plant appropriate for their diet. But I don’t think this knowledge is acquired through her memory of having been a caterpillar.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 8, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/8 "2008-12-08T22:35:11Z")
> [@panache45](#):
>
> For one thing, the female butterfly has to know on which plants to lay her eggs, so the emerging caterpillars will be on a plant appropriate for their diet. But I don’t think this knowledge is acquired through her memory of having been a caterpillar.
Most likely not. However, some butterfly species feed on a range of host plants as caterpillars. Offhand, I don’t know if there is a tendency of a female to lay on the same host plant species she herself fed on (not just the range of host plants used by the species). If there is it could result either from retained chemical cues, or, less likely, some kind of learning.
But I’m having dinner tonight with an expert on caterpillar herbivory, and I’ll try to remember to ask her. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Bad\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_Astronaut)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/9 "2008-12-09T06:33:20Z")
Somewhere in the staff reports section someone asked this question, and someone else reported that a recent experiment had demonstrated that they did retain memory (conditioned behaviour of some kind). You will have to search around for details.
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### Author:  [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/10 "2008-12-09T06:56:35Z")
> [@Bad\_Astronaut](#):
>
> Somewhere in the staff reports section someone asked this question, and someone else reported that a recent experiment had demonstrated that they did retain memory (conditioned behaviour of some kind). You will have to search around for details.
Posts 14 and 16 of [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=483003&highlight=butterflies) thread are the ones you’re referring to. The original staff report writer says he thinks part of the neural system is preserved, and someone else cites a study that shows butterflies retaining some olfactory conditioning.
-FrL-
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/butterflies-memories/476256/11 "2008-12-09T15:33:41Z")
> [@Frylock](#):
>
> Posts 14 and 16 of [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=483003&highlight=butterflies) thread are the ones you’re referring to. The original staff report writer says he thinks part of the neural system is preserved, and someone else cites a study that shows butterflies retaining some olfactory conditioning.
>
> -FrL-
[Here’s](http://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=31707) another link to the same study:
> [@](#):
>
> The Georgetown researchers found that tobacco hornworm caterpillars could be trained to avoid particular odors delivered in association with a mild shock. When adult moths emerged from the pupae of trained caterpillars, they also avoided the odors, showing that they retained their larval memory. The Georgetown University study is the first to demonstrate conclusively that associative memory can survive metamorphosis in Lepidoptera—the order of insects that includes moths and butterflies—and provokes new questions about the organization and persistence of the central nervous system during metamorphosis.
This is very recent work, having been published in March of this year.