# Button start cars- why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333 "2011-01-20T16:17:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/41 "2011-01-21T07:06:16Z")
[Just when you thought the new systems were more secure.](http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1690/keyless-entry-systems-vulnerable-to-high-tech-car-thieves/) ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/42 "2011-01-21T08:59:57Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > WAG: The technology got better. Back in the day, it was probably mechanical, not electronic, and probably undependable, and thus it didn’t survive in the marketplace. Today, it’s probably much more dependable. Instead of something old becoming new, it’s probably more similar to technology catching up over time, like how GPS replaced maps. Maybe in another 30 years, automatic seatbelts will return, but they’ll be far superior to the ones that everybody hated in the 90’s. > > Speaking of car technology, why haven’t sun visors gotten better in the past 30 years? It’s essentially the same design today as my first car, a 1981 Datsun. I looked at a car about 10 years ago that was used, and had an automatic seatbelt. I actually liked it, it hit me at a comfortable place [didn’t squeeze the hell out of my tits or choke me by wrapping itself around my neck] Didn’t get that car for other reasons, but I agree, I could see automatic seatbelts coming back at some point. The visors on my 2006 Jetta actually are decent, they slide on the little arm thingy so they can be moved back further to shield from setting sunlight from the 6 o clock to 9 o clock position and moved to behind the rear view mirror to take care of that damned gap where the setting sun at the twelve o clock to 3 o clock position. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/43 "2011-01-21T09:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe in another 30 years, automatic seatbelts will return, but they’ll be far superior to the ones that everybody hated in the 90’s The automatic seatbelts were a stop-gap measure that allowed car makers to fulfill the “passive restraint” requirement on some cars without using airbags. I don’t think they were ever really billed as a feature and I doubt they’re ever going to come back now that airbags are ubiquitous. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/44 "2011-01-21T11:45:42Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The push-button start on some modern cars is a fatal design flaw, as last year’s Toyota Hysteria demonstrated. At least with a key-start (even via solenoid) there was a direct mechanical linkage- turn it off and it kills the motor (unless it is dieseling). Incidentally, killing the engine is the wrong move if your car is accelerating uncontrollably. Sure, it kills your acceleration. It also kills your power brakes and your power steering (if it’s the kind that locks the steering wheel when you turn the engine off, it kills _all_ of your steering.) All this while your car is very likely already moving at speeds close to 100MPH. Congratulations, you are now the lucky passenger of a quarter ton of steel-and-fiberglass barreling uncontrollably down the road (or off the road, or wherever). You should stomp on the clutch (if your car is manual) or pop the shifter into Neutral (careful not to bump it all the way past neutral into Reverse, that would be bad). Once you’ve thus disengaged the transmission, use the brakes to slow to a stop while steering around obstacles. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/45 "2011-01-21T12:12:22Z")
> [@jasonh300](#): > > After the pushbutton starters went away, in the late 60s, the ignition key moved from the dashboard to the steering column, so that the steering wheel could be automatically locked when the car was turned off. > > About 10 years ago, GM started putting the ignition key back on the dashboard of some of their cars. This was before the pushbutton start became common again. > > Personally, I think the ignition switch should be on the dashboard, the headlights should be turned on by pulling a knob out from the dashboard, the high beam switch should be a button on the floor and if the car is an automatic, the shifter should be on the steering column – automatic transmission should only be in large sedans and station wagons – everything else should have a clutch. _nobody in this country wants manuals anymore._ get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/46 "2011-01-21T12:53:46Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > _nobody in this country wants manuals anymore._ get over it. Hey now, I like manual transmission. I like that I have more direct control over the car instead of having the transmission interpret how I’m driving to decide what kind of acceleration I want. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/47 "2011-01-21T13:20:47Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > _nobody in this country wants manuals anymore._ get over it. Some of us do. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/48 "2011-01-21T14:26:25Z")
look, both of my cars are sticks, and I don’t disagree with either of you. but the simple fact is that manual transmission take rate is in the single-digit percentage in this country, and slowly declining. We simply don’t matter anymore. besides, I think within five years or so, fuel economy and emissions standards will kill off the three-pedal manual. It’ll be planetary automatic, CVT, and DCT only. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/49 "2011-01-21T15:32:14Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > besides, I think within five years or so, fuel economy and emissions standards will kill off the three-pedal manual. It’ll be planetary automatic, CVT, and DCT only. Well, if you look at the 2011 Fiesta, the six-speed, dual-clutch _automatic_ already achieves a higher EPA MPG estimate than the five-speed manual. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/50 "2011-01-21T16:11:43Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Well, if you look at the 2011 Fiesta, the six-speed, dual-clutch _automatic_ already achieves a higher EPA MPG estimate than the five-speed manual. I think the key here is 6-speed vs. 5-speed, as opposed to manual vs. auto. A 6-speed manual transmission, with the same gear ratios as the 6-speed auto would probably achieve better fuel economy. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/51 "2011-01-21T16:20:16Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > I think the key here is 6-speed vs. 5-speed, as opposed to manual vs. auto. A 6-speed manual transmission, with the same gear ratios as the 6-speed auto would probably achieve better fuel economy. Even gear for gear the gap is going to disappear soon. Early automatics had to react to changes in engine vacuum and RPM. Computer controlled automatics got a few more benefits. Modern automatics can talk to the electronic throttle body, the wheel speed sensors, the engine computer that’s constantly measuring fuel consumption, etc. We’re hitting a point where even the mechanical losses of a torque converter can be easily countered by programming all the systems in the car to work together for a common goal, in a way that the human brain and a manual transmission just can’t hope to achieve (unless you’re a hyper-miler). Also, and I have absolutely no evidence of this, I suspect all the automakers have a simulation of the EPA mileage test that they can run through a few hundred thousand times with various auto transmission settings until they’ve figured out the perfect way to game that system. As the torque converter continues to be phased out in favor of dual-clutch automated manuals, the gap will grow even wider. It sucks. I like my sticks. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/52 "2011-01-21T16:27:38Z")
the other thing is the CAFE clampdown means engines are going to have to run more efficiently, which in general means the powerband is going to get narrower/peakier. Thus they’ll need more forward gears to keep the engine in that narrow powerband, so it’ll get to the point that a transmission with a clutch pedal and shifter will just plain be unworkable. Witness the 8-speed planetary and 9-speed DCTX that ZF has (Chrysler is keen on using both.) You’re not going to get that many forward gears in a single-countershaft manual. and even if you could, I think even fewer people are insane enough to even want a 9-speed manual transmission. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/53 "2011-01-21T16:32:27Z")
> [@](#): > > It sucks. I like my sticks. So do I, but I don’t try to pretend they are actually superior for every day driving, and haven’t been for some time. When being perfectly honest, I’ll admit that I drive a stick mostly because it makes ME feel superior that I can. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/54 "2011-01-21T16:33:39Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Incidentally, killing the engine is the wrong move if your car is accelerating uncontrollably. Sure, it kills your acceleration. It also kills your power brakes and your power steering (if it’s the kind that locks the steering wheel when you turn the engine off, it kills _all_ of your steering.) This is true of an automatic transmission. It is not true with a manual transmission unless the clutch is pressed in and/or the transmission is placed in neutral. I do not deny that in the US and one or two other countries, manual transmissions are less common than automatics. All the steering locks I am familiar with require an additional motion to lock the steering after the ignition is switched off, pretty much specifically to address the concern you raise. Some require use of both hands, and some require that the transmission be placed in Park. With rental cars it typically takes me nearly a minute to work out how to lock the steering the first time so that the key can be removed. In addition, the most widely used Bendix style vacuum assist system provides for one full power and another one or more additional part power assisted brake applications after the engine stops. (vacuum is stored in the diaphragm unit itself)I have worked on such systems on all US brands, a couple of Toyotas, and a Datsun\*, and it is my impression that if exceptions exist, they are rare. Many larger vehicles (I have seen this in dodge trucks and a Lincoln town car) provide additional vacuum storage. Granted, few drivers are trained to make a safe and controlled stop with a single unmodulated application of the brakes, but this is exactly the reason they are also unable to stop the car with the engine reving before the brakes burn up. It is also worth noting that only limited manifold vacuum\*\* is available when the throttle is locked open, so even with the engine still running, full power assist may not be available for braking. Non-functioning vacuum assist does not prevent the brakes from working…just increases the pedal force needed. Even a petite driver will be able to stop a car without power assist, though more distance will almost certainly be required. In addition, many automatic transmission vehicles are equipped with wide brake pedal that will allow both feet to be used in a pinch. Steering effort will increase with an automatic, but at speed un-boosted steering effort is typically not higher than most drivers could manage. In fact many power steering systems are rather twitchy at speed, and some cars reduce the power assist at speed to mitigate this. In my poor college days, I knew many people who daily drove cars with non-functioning power brakes and/or steering. I also knew people with non-functional gas gauges who would frequently run out of gas at speed. I didn’t know any who were involved in accidents while they pulled to the side and got out the ever-present gas can. Willingly driving such a vehicle is certainly nothing I would recommend, but it does put lie to any suggestion that to be without such is certain death. \*It was old enough it wasn’t a Nissan. \*\*Fuel injected engines typically have large enough throttle valve bodies that valve port area is the induction bottle neck at high RPM, not venturi area as was typical in the era when cars had carburetors, Kettering ignition systems, and giants walked the earth. Thus even at red line, there is little manifold vacuum when the throttle valve is fully open. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/55 "2011-01-21T16:33:50Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Well, if you look at the 2011 Fiesta, the six-speed, dual-clutch _automatic_ already achieves a higher EPA MPG estimate than the five-speed manual. it really can go either way. if you look at the Fusion, the 6ATX gets better mpg than the 6MTX, but I’m sure there are gearing differences in play (haven’t looked the ratios up.) On the other hand, the Mustang gets better mpg with the 6MT than the 6AT. whatever the case, the differences haven’t been that big ever since autos and manuals reached parity in the # of forward gears. back in the day when the comparison was a 3-spd slushbox or a 5-spd manual, the difference was huge (up to double-digit mpg.) ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/56 "2011-01-21T19:11:44Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > I think the key here is 6-speed vs. 5-speed, as opposed to manual vs. auto. A 6-speed manual transmission, with the same gear ratios as the 6-speed auto would probably achieve better fuel economy. I’d say it’s both the dual-clutch and the gearing. Dual-clutches automatics are essentially computer controlled manuals, and I’d bet on their shifting strategy before the average manual driver. ---
**Author:** ![MobiusStripes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@MobiusStripes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MobiusStripes)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/57 "2011-01-22T02:36:51Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > See, I don’t like push button start myself. I’d _love_ a toggle switch, though. Agree! As a kid (and maybe a bit now) I wanted an entire dashboard full of shiny,(unlabeled) toggle switches. Hundreds of them. Only I knew what they did. (Mostly they did nefarious things like oil slicks, wheel spikes, color changing features, etc) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/58 "2011-01-22T02:51:21Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > the other thing is the CAFE clampdown means engines are going to have to run more efficiently, which in general means the powerband is going to get narrower/peakier. I disagree. I think the trend will be just the opposite. Fiat is using a electro/hydraulic valve actuator which means the engine can be tuned for flat our racing or an atkinson cycle profile on the fly. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/59 "2011-01-22T05:20:11Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > look, both of my cars are sticks, and I don’t disagree with either of you. but the simple fact is that manual transmission take rate is in the single-digit percentage in this country, and slowly declining. We simply don’t matter anymore. > > besides, I think within five years or so, fuel economy and emissions standards will kill off the three-pedal manual. It’ll be planetary automatic, CVT, and DCT only. Funny, Europe is all about the fuel economy and emissions and the prevalent tranny there is manual, with diesel engines [my personal favorite combination] ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333/60 "2011-01-22T06:39:33Z")
Incidentally, many of the trucks used by the US military (including Humvees) use a couple of switches instead of keys or buttons. You flip one switch to basically turn on the electric system for the engine, and another switch to hit the starter. If you are driving a Deuce and a Half, which is manual transmission, this is the part where you start cussing at it until you get it into gear. Humvees are automatic transmission, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/button-start-cars-why/568333.md?page=4)