Buying a ticket for one movie, deliberately seeing another - how wrong?

It sort of boggles me the lengths people will go in order to claim that all dishonest behavior is equivalent.

As for your example, I, personally, have had my (musical) work illegally downloaded when it was available for sale in retail outlets, and it didn’t bother me (or my bandmates) at all. We were glad people wanted to listen. Whether this is atypical I don’t know; among bands we played with who had commercially available CDs out, the views seemed to be split on the issue. In any case, as I said, I freely admit it’s dishonest, and I freely admit I don’t care. If that makes me immoral or unethical or “bad” in your eyes, I’m fine with that as well - we probably wouldn’t have gotten along anyway if you get worked up over matters I regard as trivial (and vice versa).

ETA: Don’t know WTF’s going on with the boards; it says I’ve already posted this twice and it’s not showing up, so if this is a duplicate I apologize.

Wow.

Just pointing out copyright infringement and theft are different things. Copyright was intended “To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts”.*

This is done by giving authors a limited monopoly on their works. Calling infringement of this monopoly theft doesn’t make much sense. Anymore sense then calling taking the right of way in a road theft. It might give you a feeling of moral superiority but it’s an feeling based on fiction.

If the original intent was just to make authors rich there wouldn’t have been limits. Original copyright was 14 years with a 14 year renewal. It’s only in modern times when RIAA and Disney lobbies bought and paid for Congress that we have ever extending copyright laws being passed.

Copyright exists to encourage the useful arts. Meaning if you like an artist’s works then you’re unethical if you make use of them with out supporting them. Which is freeloading, and jerkish, but it isn’t theft.

If you go by the original ethics and justification of copyright the question is “does paying to see this movie to critique it promote the useful arts?” Depending on your views of ID and evolution the answer will vary from person to person.

  • quoted from the United States Constitution

dang it

should be

Wouldn’t that be considered Theft of Services?

Who’s services? You paid the movie theater to be there.

So in other words, it’s OK to borrow the DVD without compensating the creator, because that’s how our copyright law currently reads? It’s ethical to view a movie without compensating the creators in one way because it’s legal that way, but is unethical in another way because it’s not legal that way?

As I tried to make clear, I’m not arguing the law. I’m arguing the ethics.

In the case of a performance in a theatre, the creator has an acknowledged right to compensation, acknowledged by law and society and reinforced through daily practice.

In the case of the sale of an article of goods, law and society considered the creator to have been adequately compensated by the first sale and has no further right to be compensated by (non-infringing) use of the goods.

In both cases, the creator has released his work into particular streams of commerce with the foreknowledge of what his rights are, correct? Does that not constitute intent that his work be used in a certain way, depending on which market he has entered into? If you are complying with that owner’s intent, then how can your act be unethical?

At some level, ethics are based on societal and legal assumptions, aren’t they? If the law and society recognize certain rights in the ownership of property and chattels, then depriving the owner of those rights can constitute a breach of ethics. If the law and society recognize no such exclusive rights, then how can a breach of nonexistent rights be unethical?

I’ve been pretty busy the past couple days, but I’ve been thinking about the OP’s question, analyzing my thoughts on the matter. I’ve not yet read any responses since I last posted. So, I’m typing this up beforehand (it’s pretty long), then I’ll go back and see what people have to say.

It seems to me that the closest analogous two scenarios thus far are: (1) the fruit consignment and (2) my example above of demographic data. I think (1) has been made clear enough to not need repeating, but I’ll re-describe (2):

I purchase something online from company A. Part of the check-out procedure is to answer some demographic questions. Some marketing firm, B, accepts the demographic data, packaging both the raw data and analyses of the data for sale. A and B have a business arrangement such that A provides the data they gather to B, while B provides one or more analyses to A. A uses the analyses to guide its advertising spending, while B is free to sell its packaged data to other entities. Of course, just like political pollsters, B’s ability to profit from their data packages depends heavily on their accuracy. I pay full value to Company A for their product. Company B receives their demographic data and A receives their analysis. But, I lie when answering the demographic questions, throwing off the true nature of the data.

What are the ethical questions, obligations, and/or faults involved in these examples? First, there is the ethical question of lying. In each case (ticket purchasing, fruit consignment, and demographic data), I think there is an ethical obligation to tell the truth, so in each of these cases I would accept (without introducing further stipulations or qualifications) that the lie was unethical.

Also playing a role in the ethics of lying: above, I made it a point to include “without any qualifications” of the basic examples. I did this because in some situations, additional qualifications matter to an ethical evaluation. Dispensing with the above examples, this is to cover situations such as “Lying is unethical”, but “Lying to hide Anne Frank from the Nazis” is completely ethical. One might also consider “just war” theory or any other numerous ethical situations to see that, contrary to the pronouncements of some, the situational context and details matter.

Then, there is the ethical question concerning financial loss. In each case, goods and services were exchanged for the agreed upon price, so there is no loss at this point in the transaction(s), and my ethical obligation of payment is satisfied. It is exactly for this reason that I feel a charge of “stealing” is, at the very least, inappropriate.

However, there is no denying that some monetary loss occurs in each case. Where exactly is the ethical fault and to whom does it attach? In the case of marketing data, I neither see nor feel any ethical obligation to make sure B’s data is accurate. That’s part and parcel of their business operation, one that is not in my purview. If they use flawed data gathering procedures and analysis – again, much like political pollsters – then the ethical fault is theirs, in that they are not satisfying their ethical obligation of supplying accurate data. IMHO, a similar principle holds in the case of box-office records and fruit inventory, although I admit that the lines are murkier, more ambiguous.

But these are just analogies, and so are not equivalent. The differences, as I see them, follow. Any one may or may not be legitimate in reaching one’s conclusion about the ethics involved; in addition, I’m just listing what comes to mind, so I’m sure that there are others:[ul]
[li]In all examples, the level of trust involved varies. That is, it seems to me that the expectation of honesty is minimal when answering personal questions online, higher than that when purchasing a ticket, and highest in the face-to-face exchange with the grocer. Thus, it seems more unethical to lie directly to the grocer than to misrepresent oneself online. It’s not clear to me whether this deserves any ethical weight at all, but I find that it affects my evaluations nonetheless.[/li][li]In the fruit and ticket examples, there is the physcial vs. intellectual property issue. That is, in every occurance, the fruit is gone. On the other hand, the ticket sale may or may not have occcurred (e.g., a person will not “pay Al Gore”), or it may actually be a financial positive for one entity (e.g., an indie filmmaker benefits or the theater owner has a net gain due to the different licenses for the films), or no financial loss occurs at all (e.g., because the films’ distribution cost does not depend on box-office records, but is a flat-rate).[/li][li]In the ticket and demographics examples, there is the matter of per-sale recompense vs. an aggregate use. That is, there is a more direct causal relationship between my lie and monetary loss in the box-office scenario; in the demographics example, that relationship is diluted by statistics (although it still exists). It seems to me that this also holds true when comparing the demographic and fruit examples.[/li][li]In the demographic and fruit examples, the third party’s product is or is not dependent on my lie. That is, growing produce is a fully separate activity from whether I buy it or not; demographic data gathering and analysis is directly tied to my accurately representing myself. I find this difference interesting in that, in my mind, it changes the ethical impact of lying. Due to the more direct relationship, in the case of demographics, the lie is worse (i.e., my ethical responsibility is higher). Intriguingly, and perhaps directly because of this, it also seems to me that the ultimate impact on the third party is less – that is, the dependence may lead to an expectation of untrustworthy results ([House]Everybody lies.[/House]). Or maybe I’m simply making shit up. ;)[/li][/ul]
In the end, I agree that the practical import of the specific OP question is so vanishingly small as to be insignificant. Furthermore, it doesn’t even apply to me, but is a (toy) theoretical question only. As I’ve repeatedly intimated, I think that lying is unethical in all but the most extreme cases. As for the ethics of causing financial loss: if others want to apply their standards to me and charge me with being unethical, I accept that determination as stated, no rationalizing or evasions required. Different premises lead to different conclusions, after all, and we simply disagree on the premises.

Now, to go back and read the thread…thanks again, Bricker for an interesting intellectual exercise.

I’m a little confused by this and suspect that you’re mixing up arguments. IIRC (it’s just late enough and I’m just lazy enough not to flip back and find the post), the analogy was shoplifting from a grocer. That analogy didn’t hold, exactly because of the what you point out – the theater owner does not suffer any monetary loss, whereas the grocer does. That discrepancy was resolved by introducing the consignment wrinkle.

One might turn the argument around. I took my two young kids to see a live production film of " Pinnoccio " quite a few years ago. There was a scene very early one which was so deeply upsetting to the three of us that I took them out and drove home. ( Parents throwing a child away, etc. The kids are adopted. They were freaked. I was mad. )

I paid, and we walked in. Then we walked out. We did not get our full $ 5.00 (s.i.c.) worth of movie enjoyment. Does the management owe me? If I paid to go see a movie and went to see another, from where I sit I’ve paid the management a fee to sit and watch a movie. They have fulfilled their part of the bargain by screening a movie that I went to see.

I don’t see it as dishonest. In fact, I admire the idea that one would pay a second time for a ticket to a small indie movie, then go see a corpulent blockbuster.

Cartooniverse

I can’t believe we still haven’t managed to get this point across.

It doesn’t matter that you’ve paid the theatre. If you go into a movie for which you haven’t bought a ticket, it is the producer of that movie that you’re stiffing (by “producer”, in this context, I mean all the people who normally would get a slice of ticket sales). That’s who you’re stealing from.

(Incidentally – you actually took your adopted children to see a movie version of Pinocchio and hadn’t an inkling that it might upset them a little? Had you never heard of the story before?)

ETA: What does “s.i.c.” stand for? Did you mean sic?

This simply isn’t true. It’s not a win for the author or the publisher - they sell one book to the library (and cannot choose not to do so) but many people read it. It just happens to be legal at this point; that doesn’t mean it’s good for everybody.

I fully support Ben Stein’s right to express his outrage in the Pit. I don’t expect him to feel that this is OK - he doesn’t think he’s lying scum (probably).

In my neck of the woods cinemas have numbered seats so this doesn’t realistically come up, and I can’t think of an occasion when I would have done this even if I could (I simply didn’t watch Battlefield Earth; I actually get the occasional twinge of guilt about the fact that I eventually did watch it legally, through the local equivalent of Netflix). Thus this post contains no gyrations to justify my unethical behaviour; I’ve never indulged in said behaviour and in all likelihood never will. Having said that, I see no ethical problem with the behaviour, within certain limits.

I’m not going to defend seeing Iron Man while paying for The Visitor. That reasoning is on par with the people justifying downloading movies with “but the movie’s crap anyway”. If it’s crap, don’t see it, simple as that. But when it comes to wanting to have seen a movie like Expelled, where there is a reasonable probability that someone will use the movie as an argument, but not wanting to support the guy making it, I see no problem with it.

As always in these threads I think everyone is making it too complicated, dragging in rights and contracts and whatnot. I’m a pure consequentalist. What actually happens in the real world due to me hypothetically seeing Expelled while paying for another movie, provided neither movie sells out? The theater breaks even, Expelled makes nothing, the other movie makes a little, Expelled gets no ticket sale statistic, the other movie gets one. That is it. Since all of these things are things I consider either neutral or good, the net effect is good.

Tangent: if, as is claimed in this thread and I have zero trouble believing, movie theaters make their money from concessions and not from ticket sales, what about me? On the rare occasion that I go to the cinema, I never ever buy any snacks or drinks in there. If I bring anything at all, I buy it elsewhere. Am I engaging in unethical behaviour since, if everyone acted like I do, the theater would go broke?

I’m not. I think there are serious philosophical problems with judging the morality of an action solely on the consequences that result. But that’s probably a separate thread.

Please start that thread, because I honestly don’t have even a shred of a clue why anyone would judge an action based on anything else.

I can’t stand the justification here. If you wanted to see the Ben Stein movie, which you clearly did, then the producers of the movie deserve to be compensated for providing you with the enetertainment, or whatever you got out of it. The only real rationale is that you wanted to somehow justify to yourself that you were seeing it out of some sort of protest action. The truth is the movie was worth $10 to you to see and the folks who created that value for you are not getting compensated. That is stealinig. EOS.

I protested the movie, too. By not going to see it.

Yes, or they would raise the price of tickets to $30.

Most movie theatres display signs prohibiting you from bringing in “outside” food or drinks.

Not here, unless I’m wildly unobservant.

Here ya go.

Screw the movies, the demographic question is more interesting.

There are a couple of factors which I think must be considered. First, are you paying a full and fair prices for the product not counting the demographic information? If you get a discount for filling it out, then I think you are ethically obligated to be truthful. If not, let’s go to step 2.
Is there an opt out box? If you are not getting anything for filling out the demographic information, can you choose to give no information at all, which is not lying. In some cases you will be forced to fill out the information. In this case, especially if you had no warning ahead of time that you would be forced to fill out this form, the company is taking money from you (time) without compensation. You may not want your private information to be used, so you aren’t any obligation to provide them something of value with nothing in return.

There are two ways to lie. The first is to randomly pick some answers. The second is do something like say you are 98 years old, making > $1,000,000, and have a second grade education. I know a bit about data mining, and competent tools look for outliers and will throw out your answer, so it won’t affect what company B is getting.

And one more question. Would the answer about the correctness of switching theaters change if you are swapping with someone? That is, as you go from theater 2 to 1, you notice someone with a ticket for the movie in theater 1 going to theater 2. In this case, your switching restores the proper payment to each producer.