# Buying an apartment in the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 5, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446 "2021-04-05T14:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/61 "2021-04-07T12:53:59Z")
In FL, most condos have an interview process for would-be renters/buyers. Under current law there’s not a lot of reasons we can legally withhold approval to rent/buy. But there are still some. In the old days anything went and many folks were denied for essentially social reasons; some fair, some foul. So the “interview” has morphed into a get-acquainted session and an opportunity for the committee to explain the local rules & customs to the new folks. Any buyer is going to be signing lots of docs unread and getting lots of paperwork they file without reading, much of which is boilerplate immaterial to day to day living. But some of which matters a bunch. But in a group living situation you really want people to know that they only can park here not there, and only have 2 cars and zero pets, they must be done playing loud music at 10pm sharp, trash day is Wednesday, so don’t use the garbage chute, etc. And it’s worthwhile to watch the prospectives’ reactions. Some folks are cut out for group living and others belong on a ranchette out in the country. As a condo board member and former president, people who think rules are for everyone except themselves are the bane of our existence. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/62 "2021-04-07T12:55:21Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > some of the issues regarding exterior areas don’t apply to apartments and from what I hear, that’s where most of the crazy rules are. Officially we have a rule against putting laundry out to dry on balconies (keep your scanties to yourself!), but some people occasionally get away with it. Recent fire safety consciousness in London generally means there’s been a crackdown on putting wooden decking down on balconies. And if anyone should take it into their heads to paint the outside of their window-frames in some flamboyant colour, there would be a fuss, I don’t doubt. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/63 "2021-04-07T15:59:31Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > this may be unrepresentative, but I remember seeing some US TV drama where prospective residents of an apartment in New York were being interviewed by a committee of residents From what I understand - this is more typical of co-ops than condos. (Loosely speaking) in a condo, I own my unit outright & my neighbors own theirs. It’s not a great thing if one of them is personally reprehensible or financially irresponsible - but it has a limited effect on me. For co-ops, the owners are buying a share of a business (with the right to live in one of the units). As a result, the current business owners want to interview and vet their potential business partners, they all have a much more direct financial stake in what is likely their biggest financial asset. Here, co-ops tend to be slightly pricier than condos (but according to my real estate agent), tend to be more stable. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/64 "2021-04-07T16:03:42Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Just to add to @Maserschmidt’s post: my wife is addicted to various “House Hunters” TV shows, including ones in set in Europe, and I’ve definitely seen episodes in which the US-born home shoppers were stunned to learn that pretty much nothing in the kitchen would stay in the house. I also saw in the House Hunters International shows that some European kitchens come without any built in cabinetry. And I also noticed that the kitchen cabinets sold at IKEA seem to show this; they’re generally freestanding on legs, rather than the more built-in construction of typical American kitchen cabinetry. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/65 "2021-04-07T16:09:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And I also noticed that the kitchen cabinets sold at IKEA seem to show this; they’re generally freestanding on legs, rather than the more built-in construction of typical American kitchen cabinetry. All my kitchens in the UK have been built in the same way, even though we don’t have a tradition of moving our kitchens with our houses - self contained cabinets that screw together and get screwed to the wall. Cupboards are standard sizes. Is this not the case in the US? Is every kitchen hand built entirely from scratch? Because that sounds expensive. I looked at the Home Depot site, and those kitchens look basically the same as ours… ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/66 "2021-04-07T16:12:03Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Is every kitchen hand built entirely from scratch? Because that sounds expensive. Not necessarily “from scratch,” but very commonly built specifically to the particular dimensions of the kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/67 "2021-04-07T16:14:48Z")
Well, that’s true here too, but basically by a combo of standard units with a few bespoke filler panels ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/68 "2021-04-07T16:15:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > When I was looking for a place assessments were ALL over the place. Generally the older the place the more they were and often it was hard to figure out why they were so high beyond extra maintenance costs. Utilities most likely, especially heat. Older buildings, especially former apartment buildings that were converted to condos, likely still have a central boiler system for heating. That’s not easy to change out, same with water pipes, and the building may have little to no insulation either. So the HOA fees need to cover heat, hot/cold water, and sewer, while you’d pay those yourself in a newer building that was always condo. Electricity and phone/internet were probably already separate per-unit from the beginning, but even that’s not guaranteed. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/69 "2021-04-07T17:16:04Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > A lease is a pretty formidable document. One point we haven’t mentioned is that, in the UK, after a long history of [some] freeholders of apartment blocks engaging in assorted mismanagements (letting maintenance contracts to friends and relations at excessive rates, etc), the law changed to allow a specified percentage (something like two-thirds?) of leaseholders to form a company and force the sale of the freehold rights to their company. Is “freeholder” another way of saying “land owner”, or is there some nuance to that? The terminology choice is interesting. “Sale of freeholder rights” sounds far less intense ideologically than property ownership in the US, which seems more “absolute” culturally. That and things like the “right to roam” rules that I understand exist in part of the UK point to a very different philosophical approach to land ownership. > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I get the impression, though, that on the whole, when residents here take over the freehold of a development, they don’t tend to be as restrictive as some of the horrors we hear about American HOAs, though I’m not quite sure why that might be so (this may be unrepresentative, but I remember seeing some US TV drama where prospective residents of an apartment in New York were being interviewed by a committee of residents - I can’t imagine that happening here, certainly not when it comes to buying a leasehold flat). It varies. As others have said, the horror stories are often in single family house developments, with the corresponding rules about what color your house is, being allowed to park your work truck in your driveway, making sure your lawn is pristine, etc. I don’t know how overblown those stories are, I’m sure some of them are real and it’s easy to imagine the sort of “petty tyrant” personality who’d be attracted to HOA board roles. On the other hand, if you buy a property in an immaculate neighborhood of cookie cutter houses you probably know what you’re getting into and to some degree like it (or at least the tidiness that goes with it). I could imagine a condo HOA board getting in your business in a petty way, but luckily that hasn’t been my experience. We have rules about common area tidiness, pets, etc. but they’re mostly common sense and I don’t get a vibe of suspicion and surveillance out of them. The day to day operations are managed by professionals (a company hired to take care of collecting fees, admin, the actual busywork of scheduling repairs, etc.) who do a pretty good job. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/70 "2021-04-07T18:02:44Z")
Cabinets in the US are mostly standard sizes - but you said you don’t have a tradition of moving your kitchens with your houses. As far as I can tell, places where people do move their kitchens with their houses don’t typically have every wall covered with matching cabinetry ordered to fit that specific kitchen - it seems that they use freestanding pieces and are probably willing to have some empty space and/or have some cabinets that aren’t exactly the same. Although US cabinets do come in standard sizes, there are different sizes - some of my cabinets are half as deep as the others because the wall is bumped out where the pipes run from the basement up to the second floor. If I tried to move those cabinets to a different kitchen without the bump , it wouldn’t look right. I probably wouldn’t be able to find matching cabinets years later so I’d be left with either a couple of shallower cabinets in between a bunch of deeper ones or empty space ( that also might not look right). If I was going to move my kitchen from house to house like the furniture in the other rooms , I would use freestanding pieces like I do in the other rooms. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/71 "2021-04-07T18:37:52Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > All my kitchens in the UK have been built in the same way, even though we don’t have a tradition of moving our kitchens with our houses - self contained cabinets that screw together and get screwed to the wall. Cupboards are standard sizes. Is this not the case in the US? Is every kitchen hand built entirely from scratch? Because that sounds expensive. I looked at the Home Depot site, and those kitchens look basically the same as ours… I suppose it depends what you mean by “from scratch”. I’m pretty sure the cabinets are fairly modular and have a typical size in general, allowing for pre-built components, but the overall design will absolutely be custom to the house and I suspect there’s always going to be some basic custom carpentry involved. Our house was renovated extensively by the previous owners 12 years ago and they’ve kept all the paperwork. The kitchen and bathroom were completely rebuilt and the cabinetry completely rebuilt. I can see the diagrams for the cabinetry in their files: they’re from Lowes (a big box home improvement chain) and they are computer generated renderings and plans. It’s clearly software specific to the job, so I think while the measurements, etc. are custom the process for designing, cutting, and installing is down to a pretty efficient science. But the cabinetry is very, very permanent, with matching crown molding and cabinets in a very customized marble island. There’s no way you’re taking this stuff out and installing it in a different house. The German model sounds exhausting to me, but I can understand different cultural priorities. When I rented in South Africa it seemed closer to that. Cabinets stayed, but there wasn’t much in the way of kept appliances. I can’t even remember if the stove stayed, but we certainly had to buy a fridge, etc. and there was no dishwasher (or place for it). I’m actually a little surprised by the folks saying that it is common in the US to buy a house without a fridge. I’m 0 for 3 on that. 0 for _a lot_ if you include rentals. Every house has come with the fridge, even the one where they hadn’t even installed it yet and actually asked us which one we wanted. The washer and dryer seemed more typically negotiable, although we ended up with one in each of the houses in the end. I don’t think there are any laws on this, at least in jurisdictions I’ve been in, and I’m sure you can write the sales contract however both sides please. But the cultural expectation so far for me in the US is that the major appliances and any cabinetry or fittings attached to the home are included. Washer and dryer are the exception to that rule, and can go either way. Fridges are included in my experience, but clearly that isn’t 100% universal. Actually, there was one “sort of” exception to that: when we were looking at renting in Sacramento one potential landlord tried to “gift” us the fridge. As in, give us both the fridge and the responsibility for maintaining it. Some gift! It was clearly on its last legs and it was obvious why she was doing that. Owning a fridge in a rental is stupid, since you’re very likely not to need it when you move out (the new rental or purchase will likely have one that fits already). She clearly knew this was out of the ordinary since she made a big deal of it. That and some other reasons made us stay away. I don’t want that type of landlord! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/72 "2021-04-07T20:23:08Z")
My brother recently bought a place and had an interview. He said it was with a single board member and it was pretty much as you describe. Basically a get to know you and this is how we roll around here thing; are you ok with that? Nothing weird or unusual. Almost certainly these interviews were absolutely used to keep the “wrong” people out (black, Jewish, gay…take your pick) in the past but those days are long gone. Any place that tries to do that these days is aching for a lawsuit. > [@doreen](#): > > But for the most part, the really petty rules I’ve heard about involve HOAs in developments of single family houses , not apartments. You can’t really make a rule about keeping the garage door closed at all times or mowing the grass exactly when it reaches 2 inches in an apartment complex. Yup. I live in a hi-rise and the condo board is strict but reasonable. Strict in that they firmly apply the rules and fair in that there really aren’t that many rules and most are common sense (e.g. don’t throw stuff off your balcony like cigarette butts). About the most they get in your business is no decorations on your front door of any sort and no door mats in the common hallway (if you want one inside your place knock yourself out) and no smoking inside. When I did some interior re-modeling I had to get board approval. The only downside was the board does not meet very often so I had to wait for that. They asked some pointed questions but as long as I was not messing with the physical structure of the building (and its pipes and electrical) I could mostly do what I wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/73 "2021-04-07T21:58:04Z")
> [@kitap](#): > > That’s what he said “you can buy **land** ”. I’m guessing he meant affordable for the middle class, and probably 100 acres or so. You’d also have to ask _when_ he left the UK, and what his parents did. > In 1918 less than a quarter of Britain’s homes were owner-occupied. Even as the home ownership ratio rose, a lot of people in England still thought rental was the ‘normal’ way to live, and there are still advocates for state-owned rental accommodation. Some of them came to Aus, and Aus politics is influenced by UK politics anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/74 "2021-04-07T22:19:57Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Agreed – condos are mostly a thing in big cities (and in the urban areas, less so in suburbs). > [@Voyager](#): > > Maybe not so much any more. There is tons of new housing in San Jose and Santa Clara, mostly condos because of their relative affordability. Lots of new housing in my town which is suburban is condos. I’d absolutely consider San Jose a “big city” - I mean it is a 1 million+ people 😉. And frankly I consider all of the SF Bay Area to be more or less a single metropolitan area with an acute demand for housing and hence a market for condoization. Santa Clara along with every other suburban/exurban city in the BA is de facto a bedroom community for everywhere else. Hour+ daily commutes are depressingly commonplace out here. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/75 "2021-04-08T07:43:23Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > The kitchen and bathroom were completely rebuilt and the cabinetry completely rebuilt. I can see the diagrams for the cabinetry in their files: they’re from Lowes (a big box home improvement chain) and they are computer generated renderings and plans. It’s clearly software specific to the job, so I think while the measurements, etc. are custom the process for designing, cutting, and installing is down to a pretty efficient science. But the cabinetry is very, very permanent, with matching crown molding and cabinets in a very customized marble island. There’s no way you’re taking this stuff out and installing it in a different house. That’s exactly the same as the UK, and was the same experience I had in Italy as well (where there has been a tradition of taking kitchens with you). The counter tops are cut bespoke, because they have to be, but the cabinets that sit below come in a range of standard sizes - and the installers will cut down existing cabinets to adapt to the kitchen shape. I think if you took away the counter top and the mouldings, you would find standard freestanding units underneath which you could move if you really wanted to Appliances tend to be a matter of negotiation at the point of home sale in the UK - but with the increasing tendency to build them in, they tend to stay with the house. The buyer would still pay for them, however. My current kitchen has all built in appliances, and I had t negotiate a price for them from the vendor. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/76 "2021-04-08T10:56:24Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Is “freeholder” another way of saying “land owner”, or is there some nuance to that? Only in the sense that if there’s a socking great apartment block on the land, with umpteen leaseholders having the right to live in it for umpteen years to come, the focus of interest won’t be on the land (as something that could be used for anything else). The focus is on the reciprocal rights and obligations of freeholder and leaseholder. Usually, that is. Having said all that, we do talk of “land owners” in the sense of holders of large and extensive property portfolios, such as the Crown Estates or the Duke of Westminster. But that would be when talking about their holdings en masse, or transactions on non-residential properties, rather than whatever company or vehicle they might have set up to deal with the freehold responsibilities of [Whatever] Mansions. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/77 "2021-04-08T16:36:49Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > The buyer would still pay for them, however. My current kitchen has all built in appliances, and I had t negotiate a price for them from the vendor. This might be a subtle difference. I think in the US there’s a cultural expectation (at least I haven’t personally encountered any counterexamples) that anything attached is included along with the major appliances. Dishwasher, oven, and in my experience the fridge too, just naturally come with the place, and a seller who started claiming that these items were not included in the base negotiated price would be an outlier. I’m not sure if there are formal rules about what you present at the open houses, pictures, etc. matching what you’re actually selling, but culturally my default assumption has always been this stuff is included. I think this is true for rentals too, although the lease agreement we have with our tenant actually has all the appliances we’re responsible for maintaining explicitly enumerated. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/78 "2021-04-08T18:12:31Z")
When purchasing a house or condo (in the US) the disposition of the appliances are just part of the negotiation package. It has to be spelled out one way or the other. If the kitchen has a cooktop and separate wall ovens, it wouldn’t make sense to take those out compared to a range (cooktop and oven) that just slides into place. Refrigerators are more often than not just freestanding in a cabinet alcove, rather than integrated with the cabinetry such as you see with high-end brands like Sub-Zero or Thermador. So I can understand why those self-contained refrigerators might leave with the last owner. It’s really just a matter of what the buyer and seller want, but I do agree the default position is that kitchen appliances come with the house. Apartments are almost always, in my experience, provided with necessary appliances, at least a refrigerator and range. Dishwashers, microwaves, or garbage disposals are a matter of what the landlord wants to offer. Of course if it’s a basement unit of questionable legality, then you may be obligated to provide your own hot plate or a small dorm-style fridge, but that’s not how above-board apartment buildings and complexes work. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/79 "2021-04-08T18:45:22Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > I’m not sure if there are formal rules about what you present at the open houses, pictures, etc. matching what you’re actually selling, but culturally my default assumption has always been this stuff is included. I think the way that it works is that the multiple listing service has a form that lists which appliances the seller intends to convey. As a legal matter, the purchase and sale agreement governs which appliances are included in the sale. Generally, the buyer makes an offer that would say it includes all the listed appliances. If the seller agrees, that’s the deal. The buyer could even include things like the car in the garage, which my real estate agent told me happened to her once. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446/80 "2021-04-08T21:10:50Z")
I know that in Ontario, there’s a distinction between fixtures and chattels. Fixtures are attached whereas everything else is a chattel. Fixtures belong to the property unless explicitly excluded, where as chattels are not part of the offer unless explicitly included. Built in book cases, stove top in the counter, dishwasher, light fixtures, broadloom are all in. Pictures, plugged in appliances, rugs, beds, etc. are all out. The listing will call out anything that doesn’t match the legal definition: “ex. dining room chandelier” is a typical exclusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buying-an-apartment-in-the-us/939446.md?page=5)