How about another example?
You have a swollen jaw and I bring you an icepack. And not only do you refuse to acknowlege that I brought you the icepack, but you get all upset if I mention that fact because you claim your jaw was only swollen because a different guy the same color as me is the one who socked you in the jaw?
“But doesn’t that mean we will all face oppression?” -SWM
= “I don’t want to face oppression”
= “I actually do understand that I have privilege but I want to keep it because I prefer to have am advantage”
Arguments from SWM against the idea that they have privilege always prove that they are well aware of it but don’t want equality because it wouldn’t benefit them.
The rhetoric is a distraction from the real question here, which is about equality. When women were given the PRIVILEGE of voting (an active privilege) did men lose the right to vote?
Here’s an example using passive/negative privilege: Not being a slave is a privilege (using your definition above, in which not being shot is a privilege). Did abolishing slavery in America result in the enslavement of whites?
Passive/negative privilege means you are not being denies basic human rights. Do you not agree that everyone has certain unalienable rights?
That would be racism, which I obviously think is destructive.
Regarding No. 15: My uncle has been told, in somewhat more polite terms, to “get over slavery”, and he is white. And Jewish. He was a slave laborer in Nazi-occupied Europe, and will bring it up at the slightest provocation. In fact I’ve heard him say things like, “Those blacks were never slaves themselves, only their ancestors were. But I was a slave myself.”
The quality and precision of the rhetoric used to buttress an idea or argument has a major impact on how the idea or argument is received. It’s not a distraction, it’s a core part of any discussion. If arguments about white privilege are phrased in such a way that those who hear them come away with the notion that reducing white privilege means that white people get the same low-quality treatment from police that blacks and hispanics get, as opposed to blacks and hispanics getting the high-quality treatment whites get, that is a problem, and it should be addressed.
[QUOTE=thisishowwepray]
When women were given the PRIVILEGE of voting (an active privilege) did men lose the right to vote?
[/quote]
No, of course not.
[QUOTE=thisishowwepray]
Here’s an example using passive/negative privilege: Not being a slave is a privilege (using your definition above, in which not being shot is a privilege). Did abolishing slavery in America result in the enslavement of whites?
[/quote]
No, of course not. But phrasing it as “White privilege means not being enslaved”, then noting that “White privilege should be reduced/ended”, leaves the idea open to that interpretation.
[QUOTE=thisishowwepray]
Passive/negative privilege means you are not being denies basic human rights. Do you not agree that everyone has certain unalienable rights?
[/QUOTE]
Of course.
I think you’re assigning malice to something that also springs from confusion or ignorance.
Also, in a discussion of white privilege, narrowing it to straight males is wrong-headed. White women and white homosexuals enjoy white privilege as well.
Really? No one can honestly disagree with you that white, straight, or male privilege exists? I agree that they do, but this is a very troubling way to confront those who don’t.
And also pretty fucking clearly not what the poster was trying to say.
White men get bent out of shape when accused of having privilege because they are somewhat aware of all the crap that happened to make this so. However, any particular white man should not feel that people are blaming him as a person. Only that he should acknowledge being a beneficiary. The way I understand it is that, beyond any material benefits, having privilege means being given the benefit of the doubt in situations where others would not be. Different standards for different folks. I’m not offended when it’s pointed out that I have light skinned privilege (for some of the same reasons white people have privilege) or cute girl privilege. It is what it is.
Grumman, or thisishowwepray?
Either way, there’s a legitimate discussion to be had here about what exactly a race/gender/orientation privilege is or isn’t, and how the idea can be accurately conveyed through discourse. The article in the OP is an example of what not to do: sweeping, absolutist, and thus largely incorrect statements. Saying that it’s a privilege to not be victimized by police is off-putting, such a thing ought to be a right. Even though the underlying idea that race influences police behavior is perfectly sound, casting it in those terms weakens the idea.
You’re basically asking me to prove racism. Sure, let me find someone who admits to being a racist then. If I cannot, then OMG, there’s no such thing as racism!
There are incredibly comprehensive studies done on how racism manifests itself. The Buzzfeed list points to another one: black males are more likely to be in jail than any other race. Now you can either say “its because black males commit more crimes”, which is crap and plays to a racist genetic belief about race superiority, or you can read the various literature here, here, and here and use your judgement and say “Hey, something’s wrong here!”. The difference between me and you is that I see this pattern of police abuse and recognize the causes and you won’t believe it happened until you’re staring at it in the street.
I agree with you here overall, and think that there are many situations in which saying “black disadvantage” (or similar) would be more effective. I really just don’t think this discussion is anywhere near a level that allows for a breakdown of rhetoric. I was trying to simplify and I do agree with you.
Again, I think you’re probably right that it is largely a result of ignorance. That doesn’t make it much less appalling.
White women enjoy white privilege but not male privilege. White gay dudes experience white privilege but not straight privilege. Maybe it is confusing to bring other types of privilege into this discussion, even though they’re all related.
That said, it does seem like SWM are the only ones who get pissed when they’re called privileged. As mentioned in my first post, I have no problem being called on my white/educated/upper-middle-class privilege. I think it’s good to be aware of, and I want to be told when I’m being an asshole, which brings me to:
You’re right; it wasn’t super generous of me. I think it’s pretty deluded to believe that any of these aren’t real, but that wasn’t a very friendly way of putting it. It’s hard not to get angry about this stuff. Needed a computer break.
Buzzfeed is, in general, a terrible website for any number of reasons, but that’s not really the point here. As for this list, it’s also garbage, that’s not to say that perhaps some non-white minorities aren’t perhaps worse in some of the categories, but there’s certainly no privilege to being white.
1. Because of white privilege, you’ll never have to worry about becoming the victim of law enforcement officers.
Utter garbage. I’m a white, middle to upper-middle class male, and I’ve been harrassed and even physically assaulted by police officers. One times I was assaulted was even by a black officer, and one of the times I was harrassed was by a female officer. Admittedly, I’m sure some minorities, particularly black and hispanic have it worse, but it seems more to me that if a cop wants to be a dick, he’s going to be a dick to whoever happens to cross his path, regardless of race.
2. Thankfully, you’ll never have to know what it feels like to see your teenage son’s death being mocked.
Because, you know, the only death that’s ever been mocked was Trayvon. Whenever murders end up in pop culture, someone is going to mock it. In fact, the only reason that case even became part of the pop culture was because of the race but, for example, the Casey Anthony case or the JonBenet Ramsey case were endlessly mocked.
3. Because of white privilege, you’ll never have to inform your children of the harsh realities of systemic racism.
Racism affects everyone, and even if it didn’t, everyone still needs to be informed about those realities. White people are less often the subject of racism, yes, but we still need to be made aware of it and be conscious of it when it arises. We’re just as responsible for maintaining systematic racism and for fighting to bring it to an end.
4. White privilege means you can be articulate and well spoken without people being “surprised.”
So I guess these people aren’t surprised when they see a white guy who is dressed like a redneck, hippy, or whatever, and they turn out to be well-spoken. How someone presents themselves has little to do with their race. If a man, regardless of his race, presents him self well, I’m not at all shocked if he’s articulate. If a man is dressed like a thug, white trash, or whatever, I’ll likely be a little surprised. Race is a non-component of this assessment.
5. Because of white privilege, you’ll never know what it’s like to have the following statistic looming over your head.
True. But just because one third of black men go through the system doesn’t mean that any given one I meet will. The statistics mean nothing to me on a personal level about whether or not I’ll go to jail. Even if that were true of white men, it shouldn’t affect my behavior because I should be obeying the law regardless. And, besides, even though there is this racial correlation, I’m fairly certain this has a lot more to do with things like poverty. Afterall, of the white people I know who have been to prison, most of them are poor as well. So even though this statistic is true, it doesn’t really account for much.
6. You can wear and act however you’d like without being labeled a thug, low life, gangster, etc.
Utter garbage. If a white guy “acts black” he can be seen as a thug, or at least a poser. If he dresses like a red neck or a hippy, he’ll be seen as that as well. And their example is Justin Beiber, ridiculous. I’m sure if Eminem weren’t famous and went around as he did, people would look down on him. What about some of these biker guys or red necks from some of the various shows on History or whatever? I doubt many people wouldn’t see them as low-lifes.
7. White privilege allows you to speak on any particular subject without being the sole representative for your entire race.
What? How often do we hear about how the rich old white guys in Washington don’t understand the problems of some other group? Any time someone finds it convenient to generalize something someone said, they will. It’s not limited to race either. It happens with race, gender, sexual preference, religion, political leanings, you name it. This is just the “us vs. them” human mentality at work.
8. White privilege means no one questions why you got that really great job; it’s assumed you were just highly qualified.
No, unless they’re racist. People get questioned all the time. If it’s a woman, maybe she slept with someone. If it’s a wealthy guy, maybe it’s because of his money. The only time people actually ask these sorts of questions is if they don’t believe that the person in that job is qualified.
9. White privilege means not having to worry about your hair, skin color, or cultural accessories as the reason you didn’t get a job.
So a guy with gauges in his ears, or tattoos, or wild hair, or some sort of religious stuff doesn’t worry about that stuff. I hear this sort of stuff ALL the time, warnings about doing body modification or hair cuts precisely because of that. If someone goes to a job interview not looking like a candidate for that job should, they’ll get rightfully rejected, regardless of being black or white.
10. White privilege means you don’t have to worry about being monitored in a store just because the hue of your skin is a bit darker than most.
Because of the color of my skin, no, but I have been followed in stores, at least when I was younger, just for being a teenager, or presumably for wearing black, or for being in a group, or just because they have nothing better to do.
11. Having white privilege means people will never label you a terrorist.
As a terrorist, no, but for the same sort of white people who think all Middle Eastern men or Muslims are terrorists, there’s some other group who thinks all white people are racist or whatever. As a white man, sometimes I’ll get my thoughts disregarded on racial or gender issues simply because of that. So, sure, it probably sucks less for me to get on an airplane, but people get labeled for all sorts of things, regardless of race or whatever other status.
12. White privilege means not being affected by negative stereotypes that have been perpetuated and ingrained so much into American society that people believe them to be fact.
So negative stereotypes only affect other races? There’s plenty of negative stereotypes I deal with. Admittedly, most of them are less bothersome than perhaps the racist old lady who crosses the street when she sees a black man walking her way. But really, whenever you run into someone who is racist against your race or otherwise prejudiced against some group you’re a member of, you’re going to have to deal with it.
13. White privilege means you never have to explain why cultural appropriation is a bad thing.
Why is it a bad thing? I think it’s obnoxious, but whatever.
14. White privilege means not having to worry about being stopped and frisked.
Wrong. As I pointed out above, it’s happened to me on multiple occasions.
15. If you benefit from white privilege, you’ll never be told to “get over slavery.”
Seriously, who is saying this? I’ve NEVER heard anyone say it, and I don’t even know what it means. For that matter, it doesn’t seem to me like slavery really has much to do with any of the racial issues we see these days, other than being how some of them started. It’s the racist idea that some races are less valuable than others or able to be owned that led to slavery, but still, in the 150 years since the end of slavery, it’s discriminatory laws and practices, racism, poverty, and all those sorts of things that are far more relevant. Really, it seems to me that anyone who would say that doesn’t understand the underlying problems.
16. White privilege means that you’re never just your own person.
This happens all the time with all sorts of things. In their example of Nicki Minaj is the black Lady Gaga, let’s not forget the Lady Gaga is just this generation’s Madonna herself. Or for a counter-example, Tim Tebow had been described more than a couple times as a White Black Quarterback. And what if a copy isn’t a different race or gender or whatever, they’re just a copy. All it really says is that so-and-so is a lot like the other person except for some clearly different characteristic. And in their example, the reason Nicki Minaj is the black Lady Gaga and Lady Gaga isn’t the white Nicki Minaj is because Lady Gaga was famous first. The reverse comparison makes no sense.
17. Benefitting from white privilege means you can walk the Earth unaware of your color.
The only reason color ever matters is because of racism. Regardles, though, we’re all forced to experience the world through the prism of our perception. I can’t help but view the world as a white guy, with my political, religious, philosophical, and whatever other views. Obviously, someone who is more likely to encounter racial prejudice is going to be more present to race as a result, but that’s just the nature of the beast. I don’t see how that’s at all a privilege since, if it’s not race, it’s something else.
So, yeah, some of these are privileges in some sense, but of the few that are, they’re overstated. Regardless, there are still a number of racial problems that need to be addressed, and this is the sort of stuff that hurts it under the guise of awareness.
I am not sure that I have ever heard a black person getting upset that someone claimed that black people were beneficiaries of affirmative action.* (I am sure someone, somewhere, has done so, but it is not a common complaint.)
I have heard black people being upset that another person has accused them, specifically, of getting a particular job or promotion for which they have worked hard, of having been “given” the job or promotion as the result of affirmative action. (I have heard lot more white guys who thought they could sail through an interview process without effort complaining that the successful black applicant who worked hard for it was only given the job based on race.)
I do not recall claims that a particular white person got a particular job by being white.
= = =
This was a particularly unsuccessful tu quoque in terms of the real world.
No, I am basically asking you to prove what you said, which was
So you need to prove that police brutality towards minorities is not triggered by anything they did, and that police typically start beating minorities on sight.
Regards,
Sho-damned
Blaster–poor white people definitely have it bad. I wonder, though, if the examples of hippies and bikers aren’t problematic because these are chosen identities (not sure enough of what you mean by redneck to address it)? I agree that people are often surprised when a hippie or tattooed biker dude is eloquent, but the hippie chose his haircut and clothing and the biker elected to get his tattoos and buy a bike, whereas one can’t choose his race.
But yeah, Buzzfeed sucks and this article is certainly not well-crafted cultural criticism. It’s a bunch of someone else’s images.
Google “stop and frisk.” Vast majority stopped black. Vast majority of them completely innocent. You can pick your own source. Stats from the FBI and NYC.gov come up on the first page of search results.
This is a completely meaningless distinction.
A previous poster in this thread claimed that Scott Walker and Dan Quayle got to be VP by being white.
Regards,
Sho-damned
The term “white privilege” dates back to the '60s, but it’s only in recent years that it’s left the dusty academia of critical race theory and entered the mainstream consciousness, and the same is true of straight/cis-gendered/whatever else you can name privilege. As a result, what it means and how the term should be used by your average Joe is still being worked out.
[QUOTE=thisishowwepray]
Again, I think you’re probably right that it is largely a result of ignorance. That doesn’t make it much less appalling.
[/quote]
People react negatively to being told, or thinking they are being told, that their acheivements are devalued due to attributes they possess but cannot choose or control, and thus cannot earn.
And yet, in this poll, 59% of white folks stated that they “believed that prejudice and discrimination in favor of whites is important in explaining white advantage.” That’s pretty good.
It confused me, just because it seemed unrelated to the Buzzfeed piece.
That (particular offense taken by straight white males) may or may not be the case, I don’t have any poll numbers or enough personal experience to make an informed conclusion.
It happens, don’t sweat it.
If by “redneck” he meant “Southern”, he’s correct. Here’s a Stanford study in which participants indicated that people with Southern accents were less intelligent and wealthy than those with other accents, despite reading the same materials, and the perception of stupidity and poverty increased with the thickness of the accent. On the plus side, the people with Southern accents were thought to be slightly friendlier. Point is, being Southern is one of the few inborn attributes that it is still socially permissable to mock and discriminate against.
It’s racist crap to suggest that black males commit a disproportionate amount of crime? And this is demonstrated by sentencing disparities?
This is one of the areas where I see a real substance to the “white privilege” thing: while it’s obviously true that whites are subject to racially-loaded negative stereotypes, they tend to be defined in terms of particular subsets of white groups (rednecks, hillbillies, the irish, jews, polacks, etc.). There is no one negative “White” stereotype the way there is a “universal” “black” stereotype; although, I suppose the “black” stereotype is really just an “urban black” stereotype, not dissimilar to a “rural white” stereotype.