# By fundie logic, shouldn't abortion be a GOOD thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355 "2011-08-19T19:05:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/1 "2011-08-19T19:05:54Z")
Most fundies believe a couple of things about salvation and damnation: 1. Most people are going to hell. 2. Children who die before reaching a (vague) age of responsibility will go to heaven. This is made pretty explicit in the Left Behind books: all of the children below some age (roughly the age of puberty) are Raptured. The vast majority of persons above that age aren’t. I doubt that either of these things is official doctrine in any conservative Christian denomination, but by and large, this is what most conservative Christians believe anyway. They also pretty overwhelmingly believe: 1. The fetus is a person, starting from when the sperm bonks into the egg. So: P(fetal person goes to heaven|fetus is aborted) = 1. P(fetal person goes to hell|fetus is aborted) = 0. But: P(person goes to heaven|person is born) \< .5. P(fetal person goes to hell|person is born) \> .5. This is especially true because, in the fundie worldview, the sort of woman that would abort her baby is a _ **baaaaaaaaaaaad** _ woman, so if she carried her child to term, that child wouldn’t grow up as a real, true Christian, and would be less likely than average to find salvation. So when such a woman aborts her fetus, she’s actually doing the fetal person a favor, because she’s taken its chances of an eternity in heaven from dubious to guaranteed. What more could you do for someone than that? The point, obviously, isn’t that the conclusion is true. It’s that the conclusion is _ridiculous_. But since the logic is airtight (at least, I’m not seeing where there could be a hole in it), that means at least one of the premises is absurd. Specifically, at least one of the first two, since premises (1) and (2) similarly justify mass murder of young heathen children without any help from (3). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/2 "2011-08-19T19:19:47Z")
God’s first command ever after He made man and woman is be fruitful and multiply, I content it was the only command in the Garden, the rule that was violated. God also restates this command when Noah steps off the ark. Being fruitful and multiplying is apparently very important to God, and Paul even says that women will be saved through childbearing. God also states in Deuteronomy chose life so you and your children shall live. Abortion seems to go against the above. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/3 "2011-08-19T19:39:36Z")
> [@](#): > > By _fundie logic,_ shouldn’t abortion be a GOOD thing? (My emphasis) I think I see the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/4 "2011-08-19T19:40:40Z")
Four words: Thou shalt not kill. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/5 "2011-08-19T19:42:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God’s first command ever after He made man and woman is be fruitful and multiply, I content it was the only command in the Garden, the rule that was violated. God also restates this command when Noah steps off the ark. > > Being fruitful and multiplying is apparently very important to God, and Paul even says that women will be saved through childbearing. > > God also states in Deuteronomy chose life so you and your children shall live. > > Abortion seems to go against the above. 1. Fundies largely don’t care about being fruitful and multiplying. Mormons do, but they’re not fundies. Sure, it’s in the Bible, but so are a lot of things that fundies ignore. 2. The problem with the Deuteronomy verse is that, per fundie beliefs, people are being told to choose life so that people will go to hell who otherwise would go to heaven. Fundies are welcome to lay it at God’s doorstep, but it sure sounds that fundies are saying that God wants fewer people in heaven, and more in hell. That’s not a very nice God. Why should anyone give such a God the time of day? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/6 "2011-08-19T19:44:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Four words: Thou shalt not kill. But again, isn’t that saying that God wants people to go to hell when they could easily be redirected to heaven? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/7 "2011-08-19T19:46:29Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That’s not a very nice God. Why should anyone give such a God the time of day? That’s a very good question. Doesn’t sound like a God that is worthy of worship. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/8 "2011-08-19T19:47:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But again, isn’t that saying that God wants people to go to hell when they could easily be redirected to heaven? No. How did you come to that conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/9 "2011-08-19T19:48:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God’s first command ever after He made man and woman is be fruitful and multiply, I content it was the only command in the Garden, the rule that was violated. So the apple was a condom? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/10 "2011-08-19T19:49:42Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Most fundies believe a couple of things about salvation and damnation: > > 1. Most people are going to hell. > > 2. Children who die before reaching a (vague) age of responsibility will go to heaven. > > 3. The fetus is a person, starting from when the sperm bonks into the egg. > > P(fetal person goes to heaven|fetus is aborted) = 1. > P(fetal person goes to hell|fetus is aborted) = 0. > P(person goes to heaven|person is born) \< .5. > P(fetal person goes to hell|person is born) \> .5. > > This is especially true because, in the fundie worldview, the sort of woman that would abort her baby is a _ **baaaaaaaaaaaad** _ woman, so if she carried her child to term, that child wouldn’t grow up as a real, true Christian, and would be less likely than average to find salvation. Serious answer: A: That baaaaaaaaaaad woman still deserves a chance at forgiveness and redemption, and becoming a murderer (having an abortion) moves her further from that. B: That child was conceived for a reason–God controls all random events, after all, and all are part of the plan. However, we have free will, and that abortion might be measurably extending the time until the rapture or causing some other bad shit to happen, and it’s all our own fault. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/11 "2011-08-19T19:52:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So the apple was a condom? What apple? Adam and Eve had iphones? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/12 "2011-08-19T19:53:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Four words: Thou shalt not kill. So, fundies don’t hunt, right? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/13 "2011-08-19T19:55:33Z")
No, abortion encourages… or, rather, the legal and safe availability of abortion doesn’t do enough to DIScourage casual sex - which everyone knows you’re only allowed to have if you feel really guilty about it and then go denounce it on a national talk show the day after. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/14 "2011-08-19T19:56:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So, fundies don’t hunt, right? Cute. “Murder”. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/15 "2011-08-19T20:00:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Most fundies believe a couple of things about salvation and damnation: > > 1. Most people are going to hell. > 2. Children who die before reaching a (vague) age of responsibility will go to heaven. I was going to ask for a cite for this, but then I saw your next paragraph: > [@](#): > > This is made pretty explicit in the Left Behind books: all of the children below some age (roughly the age of puberty) are Raptured. The vast majority of persons above that age aren’t. Not having read the Left Behind books, I’m going to have to take your word on this; but does being Raptured necessarily mean going to heaven, and not being Raptured necessarily mean going to hell? Following “your” logic would mean not only that abortion is a good thing, but that in all cases it’s better (or at least, no worse) not to be born than to be born. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/16 "2011-08-19T20:02:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > What apple? Adam and Eve had iphones? 😃 A recent cartoon showed Eve complaining, as they made their exit from Eden, that God only knew what they had done because Adam had to go ahead and go online about it! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/17 "2011-08-19T20:03:51Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not having read the Left Behind books, I’m going to have to take your word on this; but does being Raptured necessarily mean going to heaven, and not being Raptured necessarily mean going to hell?. Raptured does mean going to ‘heaven’ but not being raptured does not mean going to hell, as that is the main plot of the book series, some people are left behind, yes some to destruction but others to work through the tribulation, some to be myrtered, etc. There is dispute if the rapture will be pre-tribulation, mid-trib or post trib or combo’s of them. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/18 "2011-08-19T20:37:42Z")
One word; no. This is like saying that, by Fundie logic, infanticide is okay because it would send all babies to Heaven faster. It’s asinine. If it’s not okay, by Fundie logic, to kill a diehard Christian who would most certainly be going to Heaven just to get them there faster, what makes you think it’d be okay, under Fundie logic, to kill someone under the age of reason to send them to Heaven faster? (I’m sure there are some run-on sentences there.) ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/19 "2011-08-19T20:49:29Z")
Plus, you’re kind of ignoring the fact that, by Fundie beliefs, God knows a person’s future beforehand. The argument that you can abort someone to save them from Hell presumes the ability to change a person’s future to something otherwise unforseen by God by engaging in some actions otherwise unforeseen by God. That’s hogwash because, according to Fundie beliefs, it’s impossible for you to change that individual’s ultimate future to something unknown by God. Therefore, if someone is aborted, (s)he was already predestined to end up in Heaven anyway as the abortion was foreseen by God, and aborting them has no effect on where they ultimately end up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355/20 "2011-08-19T20:57:18Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > One word; no. This is like saying that, by Fundie logic, infanticide is okay because it would send all babies to Heaven faster. It’s asinine. If it’s not okay, by Fundie logic, to kill a diehard Christian who would most certainly be going to Heaven just to get them there faster, what makes you think it’d be okay, under Fundie logic, to kill someone under the age of reason to send them to Heaven faster? Because if you’re heading for a nice place, it’s even nicer to get there faster? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-fundie-logic-shouldnt-abortion-be-a-good-thing/593355.md?page=2)