# By golly, the NRA may be right! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605 "2013-02-17T17:55:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/61 "2013-02-18T23:22:12Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Snowboarder Bo: > > Take a look at Table 7. Looks like 76% (783,178/1,030465) of federal inmates and 60.9% (52,619/86350) of state inmates had previous convictions. > > Also look at Table 8 for the sources of firearms used in crimes. Keep in mind that if a person previoulsy convicted of a felony is legally prohibited from obtaining a firearm, so in those cases “family or friend” becomes and illegal source. > > [http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf](http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf) Thanks for the info, but I don’t see the answer to either of my questions about the assertions made by **pkbites**. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/62 "2013-02-18T23:31:40Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > So you acknowledge that those policies were wrong? But it’s okay to take guns away from people who haven’t hurt anyone? Actually, I am one of a tiny number of people in the UK who thinks that guns should be permitted for all. However, the “injustice” in having weaponry inspected for safe keeping (which is far less stringent than the uk requirement) is basically nothing compared to things like stopping citizens from ingesting their chosen substance(es) and/or their chosen penis(es). So long as we have evil regulations then inspections are minor and probably sensible. Having said that I appreciate that to allow this in your case would mean giving up a right as opposed to gaining one, so I can see it being wise to oppose this measure as governments love giving away freedoms and not so much granting them. Anyway I hope you now understand at least in part my extreme anger I cannot take whatever drugs I like and will if not actively work to support me, at least believe I am in the right. If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/63 "2013-02-18T23:38:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I guess your police don’t have the tendency to snoop around as much as ours do. I’d _never_ voluntarily invite the police into my home, or willingly consent to a search. We don’t exactly have many j.w. peppers but it ain’t as if the police will ignore serious criminality if the discover it either, and while cases can be thrown out for reasons of entrapment or illegal searches or whatever the rules are nowhere near as strict as in the US either. But yes there is usually a friendlier relationship between people in the uk and the police. When I am pulled over for motoring offences and have to talk my way out of it, which is fairly often, I get out of the car the moment I stopped it and go to chat with the police car behind, before I am invited to. I understand if I did this in the US I would while probably not be shot at least have a pistol drawn on me. There are various benefits from being ina non paranoid society although I do not know how much the paranoia in the US and the US culture is chicken or egg. Given there are many other countries with loads a guns I think the paranoia came first tbh but I’mnpt sure. Then again most Americans are very friendly charming people, so the extreme fear is even more peculiar. Sorry for typos, using an iPad. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/64 "2013-02-19T00:28:28Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Clearly, that’s why homosexuality was illegal in large parts of the UK until 2003 and people’s houses are seized because their teenaged grandson sold another kid an eighth of pot. > > Oh wait that’s not the UK at all, that’s the US. cite on the confiscation of a grandparent’s house? > [@Apollyon](#): > > (Based purely on US TV) Isn’t the standard LEO weapon also Glock? (17?) Don’t they generally have mags bigger than 10? The cops around here use Glock 22’s but yeah full size glocks have at least 13 rounds and the most popular ones carry 15. Funny story, the NY gun control law that restricts certain guns and magazines have a specific exemption from the gun parts of the law for cops but it is not clear that a similar exemption exists for magazine size. It is not clear that RETIRED cops would be exempt from any of the provisions. > [@pkbites](#): > > The gun control act of 1934… All were touted to be panaceas to curbing violent crime. And the criminal elements keep killing and the lawful citizens keep getting the blame. Insanity! I assume you meant the national firearms act of 1934. How many crimes have been committed with machine guns since 1934? How many murders? It seems the NFA was effective in controlling machine gun violence. I don’t think you can really regulate things like sawed off shotguns if people are determined to possess them. The AWB was clearly a waste of everyone’s time but I think gun control can be effective (constitutionality is another issue but SCOTUS has implied that licesning and registration would pass constitutional muster. > [@TonySinclair](#): > > Good Lord, the bill didn’t say anything about searching your home, it said the sheriff MAY verify that you have a gun safe or equivalent. If your county is like mine, and so starved from tax cuts that the sheriff can’t even afford to keep convicted criminals locked up, then I very much doubt that they will have the manpower to do even that. So the sheriff gets to exercise discretion? Gee I wonder if this sort of discretion can lead to abuse? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/65 "2013-02-19T00:29:39Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I’ve been in law enforcement since 1982 and I would not consent to another cop searching my home, vehicle or person. But is every occasion on which the police call to your house, on any business whatsoever, a “search”? To my mind, there’s a clear difference between a search and an inspection. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/66 "2013-02-19T00:41:45Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But is every occasion on which the police call to your house, on any business whatsoever, a “search”? To my mind, there’s a clear difference between a search and an inspection. If they see a roach, it is suddenly a search. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/67 "2013-02-19T02:18:02Z")
Interesting news item on the TV news tonight. A (maybe the only) manufacturer of AR15 rifles now refuses to sell them to any police departments in New York. The reason given by the company is that if it is illegal for citizens to own them it should also be illegal for law enforcement. They also stated that this will not cut into their profitability, as at the current time they have an order backlog of over a year. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/68 "2013-02-19T02:29:23Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Interesting news item on the TV news tonight. A (maybe the only) manufacturer of AR15 rifles now refuses to sell them to any police departments in New York. The reason given by the company is that if it is illegal for citizens to own them it should also be illegal for law enforcement. > > They also stated that this will not cut into their profitability, as at the current time they have an order backlog of over a year. God bless them for it. Exempting law enforcement creates a _de facto_ “first class” citizen who is allowed greater rights than the rest of us. Last I checked, that was not how America works. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/69 "2013-02-19T02:48:48Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I’ve been in law enforcement since 1982 and I would not consent to another cop searching my home, vehicle or person. Heh. The cops I know have all made similar statements. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/70 "2013-02-19T02:51:12Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Interesting news item on the TV news tonight. A (maybe the only) manufacturer of AR15 rifles now refuses to sell them to any police departments in New York. The reason given by the company is that if it is illegal for citizens to own them it should also be illegal for law enforcement. > > They also stated that this will not cut into their profitability, as at the current time they have an order backlog of over a year. Barrett Firearms did the [same thing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Caliber_BMG_Regulation_Act_of_2004) in California a few years back. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/71 "2013-02-19T03:11:19Z")
Clearly Los almos should start selling fusion bombs to all, for why should the military get special treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/72 "2013-02-19T03:17:41Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But is every occasion on which the police call to your house, on any business whatsoever, a “search”? To my mind, there’s a clear difference between a search and an inspection. First the 2nd amendment, now the 4th. What’s it matter? ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/73 "2013-02-19T03:40:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Thanks for the info, but I don’t see the answer to either of my questions about the assertions made by **pkbites**. You asked for verification of “The majority of violent crimes are committed by career criminals who go in and out of the system.” The link shows that the majority of people convicted of gun crimes had prior convictions. Not exactly what you asked, but pretty close. You also asked “those who use guns to commit criminal acts tend to get their guns in an already illegal manner.” Table 8 clearly shows that 39.2% get their guns from illegal sources, plus some unspecified portion of the 39.6% that get them from friends and family. Since the majority of these people had prior convictions, they are prohibited persons and cannot posess a firearm, no matter who the get it from, so a safe bet is the majority of those 39.6% also consitute “an already illegal manner”. Clear enough to me. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/74 "2013-02-19T03:49:13Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > God bless them for it. Exempting law enforcement creates a _de facto_ “first class” citizen who is allowed greater rights than the rest of us. Last I checked, that was not how America works. Last I looked, there were at least a dozen companies that have done similar. LaRue Tactical, Olympic Arms, and Cheaper Than Dirt are three off the top of my head. Not to mention the Reed Exhibitions Outdoor Show was cancelled after they decided to prohibit “assault style weapons” at their show. The largest outdoor show in the whole country was called off as one after another exhibitor withdrew following their prohibition. This wasn’t just gun companies, either. Fishing tackle sellers, guide services, camping people, damn near everyone pulled out. Good on all of them. [http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/robert-farago/breaking-reed-exhibitions-cancels-2013-eastern-sports-and-outdoor-show/](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/robert-farago/breaking-reed-exhibitions-cancels-2013-eastern-sports-and-outdoor-show/) And Magpul is probably going to leave Colorado. [http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci\_22593693/colorado-ammo-magazine-maker-threatens-leave-state-over](http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci_22593693/colorado-ammo-magazine-maker-threatens-leave-state-over) ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/75 "2013-02-19T14:28:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Clearly Los almos should start selling fusion bombs to all, for why should the military get special treatment? Because the military does not walk around on the streets with fusion bombs. What country do you live in that allows the military to bring their weapons to Wal-Mart? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/76 "2013-02-19T15:23:28Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > To my mind, there’s a clear difference between a search and an inspection. Ah, the sort of brazen semantic cloth-spinning that has served the enemies of the concept of individual rights so well. Let me guess, you believe that “the Constitution is a living document” too? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/77 "2013-02-19T15:51:12Z")
Look people, either we tell the government what they can and can’t do … or they tell us. Chose one. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/78 "2013-02-19T19:55:55Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Look people, either we tell the government what they can and can’t do … or they tell us. Chose one. That sort of bumper sticker argument doesn’t really fly too well on this board. You’ve been around long enough to know that. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/79 "2013-02-19T20:42:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That sort of bumper sticker argument doesn’t really fly too well on this board. You’ve been around long enough to know that. On the contrary, I’ve lived long enough, and learned enough through observation and experience to know that my nutshell outline very well describes current events. I’m not looking for the approval of strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/80 "2013-02-19T22:52:54Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > You asked for verification of “The majority of violent crimes are committed by career criminals who go in and out of the system.” The link shows that the majority of people convicted of gun crimes had prior convictions. Not exactly what you asked, but pretty close. No, isn’t the same, so why bring it up? It’s a completely different statistic and does nothing to bolster the validity of **pkbites** assertion. > [@ChickenLegs](#): > > You also asked “those who use guns to commit criminal acts tend to get their guns in an already illegal manner.” Table 8 clearly shows that 39.2% get their guns from illegal sources, plus some unspecified portion of the 39.6% that get them from friends and family. Since the majority of these people had prior convictions, they are prohibited persons and cannot posess a firearm, no matter who the get it from, so a safe bet is the majority of those 39.6% also consitute “an already illegal manner”. > > Clear enough to me. The only thing that’s clear to me is that you’re saying that “39.2% is the majority if we just decide to assume things about how other listed legal methods for people to obtain firearms are actually illegal, and then base our numbers off this fantasy”. And again, the statistic you’re offering is different than the assertion made. I’m not sure why you’re so stuck on doing **pkbites** citation work, but since those 2 assertions were pretty clear and direct, I just assumed they would be easy to find stats. I guess they aren’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605.md?page=5)