# By golly, the NRA may be right! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 17, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605 "2013-02-17T17:55:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/101 "2013-02-22T18:44:22Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > How? Bob gives his felon brother Fred his legally purchased gun. If Fred is ever caught with it Bob just says Fred must have stolen it from my house this morning. > > The end. If you as a gun dealer let Fred purchase a gun, are there consequences for you? Should Bob get a pass in this situation since he is not a dealer? Is Bob being a responsible gun owner who is respectful of his rights? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/102 "2013-02-22T19:00:07Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > If you as a gun dealer let Fred purchase a gun, are there consequences for you? > > Should Bob get a pass in this situation since he is not a dealer? > > Is Bob being a responsible gun owner who is respectful of his rights? All ex-felons shouldn’t be stripped of their 2nd amendment rights .. I don’t know that any of them should lose that right. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/103 "2013-02-22T19:18:43Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > If you as a gun dealer let Fred purchase a gun, are there consequences for you? > > Should Bob get a pass in this situation since he is not a dealer? > > Is Bob being a responsible gun owner who is respectful of his rights? Licensed dealers must use the [National Instant Criminal Background Check System](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Instant_Criminal_Background_Check_System). They are not liable for mistakes made by NICBC, but if they complete the sale after a NICBC denial, it is a crime. Supplying a known felon with a firearm is a state matter. Here’s the [Louisiana](http://law.justia.com/codes/louisiana/2006/146/285164.html) statute, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/104 "2013-02-22T19:22:04Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > All ex-felons shouldn’t be stripped of their 2nd amendment rights .. I don’t know that any of them should lose that right. Someone who commits a felony in which a firearm is used should lose their right to possess a firearm. An embezzler, not so much IMO. A convicted felon, even one who committed a violent crime, should have a means to petition to regain those rights; but I think the bar would have to be set pretty high for ‘non-white collar’ crimes. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/105 "2013-02-22T19:30:09Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Chickenlegs, that’s from 2001 so curious if it has been updated or if conditions have changed. It does show about 40% purchase from family or friends. Presumably these were at one time in the chain owned by legal gun owners, no? Would not universal registration and tracking catch these legal gun owners and hopefully prevent the sale? > > This isn’t meant to be a gotcha ya. It does appear that despite all the 'but I’m a legal gun owner piousness spouted, a significant am out of firearms on the street originated from ‘responsible’ gun owning friends and family (and maybe some private sellers at gun shows). I think this is a problem. Registration is a necessary precondition to confiscation, in case you haven’t been paying attention. Maybe we could try enforcing the existing laws instead of punishing all gun owners everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/106 "2013-02-22T19:47:19Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Registration is a necessary precondition to confiscation, in case you haven’t been paying attention. > > Maybe we could try enforcing the existing laws instead of punishing all gun owners everywhere. Registering your car is a precondition to confiscation. So? Legal gun dealers and sellers are the source of criminal weapons, so that’s where we need to severely crack down. It does no good to crack down on the sales of guns if there is no accountability after the sale. “Oops I lost it” or “oops somebody stole it” shouldn’t be penalty free excuses. 100% accountability. We require of soldiers and police, we can require it from citizens claiming to be “responsible.” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/107 "2013-02-22T19:58:44Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Registering your car is a precondition to confiscation. So? When there’s a movement to confiscate cars, it will be wise to oppose registration of them. > [@levdrakon](#): > > Legal gun dealers and sellers are the source of criminal weapons, so that’s where we need to severely crack down. It does no good to crack down on the sales of guns if there is no accountability after the sale. “Oops I lost it” or “ **oops somebody stole it** ” shouldn’t be penalty free excuses. 100% accountability. We require of soldiers and police, we can require it from citizens claiming to be “responsible.” Bolding mine. A bold new field of criminal law: being a victim of a crime is now itself a crime. It’s illegal for dealers to sell guns to people denied by the NICBC. If you want a federal law making it illegal to supply a known felon with a firearm, that’s one thing, and is reasonable. Punishing someone for having their property stolen is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/108 "2013-02-22T20:01:17Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > All ex-felons shouldn’t be stripped of their 2nd amendment rights .. I don’t know that any of them should lose that right. Ok, but the hypothetical stated “felon brother”, no ‘ex’ to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/109 "2013-02-22T20:10:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > When there’s a movement to confiscate cars, it will be wise to oppose registration of them. > > Bolding mine. > > A bold new field of criminal law: being a victim of a crime is now itself a crime. > > It’s illegal for dealers to sell guns to people denied by the NICBC. If you want a federal law making it illegal to supply a known felon with a firearm, that’s one thing, and is reasonable. Punishing someone for having their property stolen is absurd. Right. Go commit some crime with your car, ditch it, and when the police show up just say “somebody stole it. I’m the victim here!” They’ll be really nice and say “sorry for bothering you fine citizen, we’ll just be on our way then.” Ridiculous and ignorant of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/110 "2013-02-22T20:15:21Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Right. Go commit some crime with your car, ditch it, and when the police show up just say “somebody stole it. I’m the victim here!” They’ll be really nice and say “sorry for bothering you fine citizen, we’ll just be on our way then.” > > Ridiculous and ignorant of reality. I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. Is the analogy to buying a gun legally, then giving it to a felon? Or using a gun in a crime then discarding it? Or what? ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/111 "2013-02-22T20:27:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > When there’s a movement to confiscate cars, it will be wise to oppose registration of them. > > A bold new field of criminal law: being a victim of a crime is now itself a crime. > > It’s illegal for dealers to sell guns to people denied by the NICBC. If you want a federal law making it illegal to supply a known felon with a firearm, that’s one thing, and is reasonable. Punishing someone for having their property stolen is absurd. What he said. If I legally own a gun and sell it to someone I know cannot have one, I have committed a crime. If I legally own a gun and it is stolen from me, I am the victim. Last I checked, it is the government’s responsibility to prove that a given transaction is illegal. It is not my responsibility to prove my innocence. This principle lies at the very foundation of our legal system. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/112 "2013-02-22T20:45:47Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > If I legally own a gun and sell it to someone I know cannot have one, I have committed a crime. For dealers, absolutely. For non-dealers, the 1968 Gun Control Act makes it illegal to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, dealer, collector, or manufacturer) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the state in which the transferor resides. So far as I have been able to determine, laws that prohibit an owner of a firearm from supplying it to a known felon in the same state are all at the state level, and I am unaware how many states have such laws. I’d like it to be all 50, but it’s not, because I know that my home state of Kentucky has no such law, per the NRA-ILA. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/113 "2013-02-22T20:54:31Z")
Theft from individuals is one of the least likely ways criminals obtain their guns. That’s just typical NRA obfuscation. Meanwhile, dealers “lose” or have “stolen” 1,000’s of guns, which is exactly what the NRA wants. Anything that keeps the guns flying off the shelves legally or illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/114 "2013-02-22T21:00:45Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Theft from individuals is one of the least likely ways criminals obtain their guns. That’s just typical NRA obfuscation. Meanwhile, dealers “lose” or have “stolen” 1,000’s of guns, which is exactly what the NRA wants. Anything that keeps the guns flying off the shelves legally or illegally. First, cite that guns lost or stolen from dealers is a significant source of guns uses in crimes? Second, your solution is making it a crime to have your gun stolen? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/115 "2013-02-22T21:07:13Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > First, cite that guns lost or stolen from dealers is a significant source of guns uses in crimes? > > Second, your solution is making it a crime to have your gun stolen? I’m not going to cite something I didn’t say. If you want to educate yourself, google “how do criminals get their guns?” It’s easy. But, I’m sure you already have and now you’re probably just reading out of your NRA indoctrination manual or something. I’m primarily interested in refuting NRA falsehoods and distortions as they come along, so please continue with your next one. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/116 "2013-02-22T21:16:16Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I’m not going to cite something I didn’t say. If you want to educate yourself, google “how do criminals get their guns?” It’s easy. Did you mean straw sales? Because I’m not seeing anything about dealers reporting guns lost or stolen and then selling them to criminals. > [@levdrakon](#): > > But, I’m sure you already have and now you’re probably just reading out of your NRA indoctrination manual or something. That’s right, anyone opposed to making being stolen from a crime has just been indoctrinated by the NRA. > [@levdrakon](#): > > I’m primarily interested in refuting NRA falsehoods and distortions as they come along, so please continue with your next one. What falsehoods or distortions have I made, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/117 "2013-02-22T21:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon;16034390\*\*] Registering your car is a precondition to confiscation. So?\*\* Legal gun dealers and sellers are the source of criminal weapons, so that’s where we need to severely crack down. It does no good to crack down on the sales of guns if there is no accountability after the sale. “Oops I lost it” or “oops somebody stole it” shouldn’t be penalty free excuses. 100% accountability. We require of soldiers and police, we can require it from citizens claiming to be “responsible.” [/QUOTE] Guns and cars are by no means analogous. First, there is no Constitutional protection: “The Right to keep and drive automobiles shall not be infringed.” I don’t think registering cars is a good idea either, but I’m addressing gun-control, so I’ll leave that alone for now. Second, you presumably drive your car around on public streets on a regular basis. A gun owner is unlikely to be shooting his gun out on public streets on any regular basis. A gun isn’t “used” for anything until it is discharged, so carrying one isn’t the same as driving your car … it’s closer to leaving it parked. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/118 "2013-02-22T21:54:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Did you mean straw sales? Because I’m not seeing anything about dealers reporting guns lost or stolen and then selling them to criminals. Here is an informative[article about the ATF](http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/02/11/12155/current-gun-debate-may-not-help-beleaguered-atf), and the part I’m quoting talks a bit about lost & stolen guns and of course NRA’s staunch opposition to everything. > [@](#): > > No dealer inventories > > Yet another Tiahrt amendment bars the ATF from forcing gun dealers to conduct annual inventories of their firearms, which the NRA’s Cox describes as a “laborious and time-consuming process” and “generally unnecessary.” In fact, unlike automobile dealers who have a pretty good idea when a car is missing from the lot, gun dealers seem to lose track of firearms all the time. In 2010, ATF inspections of less than 10 percent of firearms licensees identified more than 31,000 missing weapons. Unlike gun dealers, explosives dealers, also regulated by ATF, are required to keep annual inventories. > > Yet lost and stolen firearms account for a huge percentage of the guns that turn up at crime scenes. Between 2005 and 2010, the Justice Department reported 1.4 million guns stolen. More than 80 percent were never recovered. Although licensed dealers are required to report stolen weapons, there is no similar requirement for individuals, although numerous cities and towns — 30 in Pennsylvania alone — have enacted laws that require such reporting within 24 to 48 hours. The International Association of Chiefs of Police supports these laws, arguing that quick reporting of stolen guns makes it far easier to track down thieves, traffickers and straw purchasers. The NRA opposes lost and stolen reporting laws. An NRA challenge to a Pittsburgh law was turned down in 2010. > > For ATF investigators, a large number of lost or stolen firearms from a particular dealer can be a red flag that the dealer may be selling to criminals. An ATF study in 2000 found that more than 57 percent of crime gun traces in 1998 came from just 1.2 percent of gun dealers. The Washington, D.C.-area snipers, who murdered 10 people in the course of a three week shooting spree in 2002, obtained their assault rifle from a Tacoma, Washington, dealer with a long history of “missing” firearms. As for guns being stolen from private homes, I’m less certain what is going on there. Depending on where I read, criminals rarely get guns that way because it takes too long and it’s easier to buy one. Then other sources will say 200-600,000 guns are stolen from people’s homes every year. I think that’s hilarious, and I’m also dubious. Gun owners buy guns for home defense and get 600,000 guns stolen from them every year? So much for home defense. Or, are these self reported “thefts?” nudge, nudge, wink, wink. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/119 "2013-02-22T23:38:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > When there’s a movement to confiscate cars, it will be wise to oppose registration of them. > > Bolding mine. > > A bold new field of criminal law: being a victim of a crime is now itself a crime. > > It’s illegal for dealers to sell guns to people denied by the NICBC. If you want a federal law making it illegal to supply a known felon with a firearm, that’s one thing, and is reasonable. Punishing someone for having their property stolen is absurd. It’s already against federal law to knowingly supply a firearm to a prohibited person, which includes felons. [http://www.justice.gov/usao/ut/psn/documents/guncard.pdf](http://www.justice.gov/usao/ut/psn/documents/guncard.pdf) See number II. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605/120 "2013-02-23T00:46:36Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Theft from individuals is one of the least likely ways criminals obtain their guns. That’s just typical NRA obfuscation. Meanwhile, dealers “lose” or have “stolen” 1,000’s of guns, which is exactly what the NRA wants. Anything that keeps the guns flying off the shelves legally or illegally. This such bullshit. First, yes, a large source of guns used in crime are licensed “dealers” that are in fact corrupt and route guns to criminals under the table, then report them as stolen. This is a major problem. Yet for some reason, very few of these “dealers” are ever prosecuted. Why? Fuck if I know. This is why many opponents of additional gun restrictions ask “Shouldn’t we try enforcing the existing laws before we add new ones?” Second, the NRA does not want guns used in crime. Are you fucking serious? Do you really think the NRA’s goal is really “More gun crime, more violence, more better!” No! For all their faults, the NRA exists to promote legal gun ownership by law-abiding citizens. Gun owners don’t want criminals to have guns, because that removes their advantage! Dealers selling guns illegally is not in anyone’s interest, regardless of whether you are pro or anti gun control. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-golly-the-nra-may-be-right/650605.md?page=7)