"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"

Factual Questions
21

I’m going to answer for the little planes, since that’s what I know.

These days, there is frequently a “push-to-talk” switch mounted on the pilot’s (and usually the co-pilot’s) main control device - either a large, joystick like object or something vaguely reminiscent of a steering wheel called a “yoke”. If it’s a stick, it’s usually on top of stick, if it’s on a yoke it’s usually on the left for the pilot and right for the co-pilot. Usually it’s a small red button, positioned so a thumb can easily shift to reach it. If you’re going for that option, put on the pilot’s headset (if you aren’t wearing one already), then gently push the switch. You’ll hear a sort of click. Start talking. “HELP!” is a good start. Release the switch. If you get a reply, you did it right. Remember that they can’t answer you unless you take your finger off the switch.

If you can’t find the PTT switch - and if it’s a real emergency, don’t spend too much time on that - there is usually a hand mike mounted on the instrument panel between the pilot seats. It’s a plastic lump with a coiled cord attached to it. Pick it up. There is a switch of some sort on the side. Put the business end real close up to your mouth, push the switch, and talk. Relase the switch. If you did it right. you’ll get an answer.

The radio is usually mounted to the right of the pilot in the left seat. There is some resemblance to a CB display. There may be more than one, so it can get confusing. If you can figure out what gizmo on the panel is the radio and how to tune it, turn to frequency 121.5 - it’s the aviation equivalent of 911. Yell “HELP!” You will get a human on the line very quickly, it’s monitored by a lot of agencies. But if you can’t don’t worry about it - yelling “HELP!” on just about any frequency will usually get you assistance.

The Worst Case Scenario series of books has a decent chapter on how to land a small plane. Read it. Microsoft flight simulator has some decent panel displays for several varieties of airplanes (including the big jets). Proper utilization of this software will not only provide hours of entertainment, it will also enable you to identify many varieties of airplane equipment.

Of course, none of this is a substitute for real flight training, but it could give you enough knowledge to save your butt in an emergency.

22

Ya know, Johnny, before I got flight training I wouldn’t have had a clue how to recognize an active radio or known what a PTT was - and judging by how many passengers call the yoke a “steering wheel” these days I don’t imagine the general public’s level of aviation knowledge has improved any.

That’s been policy for decades in the US - the NTSB does not release black box recordings to the public. Any “tapes” you hear on the news are either air traffic control recordings or from foreign sources. Nor are written transcripts normally released.

Even if they were, there’s no guarantee they would have any definitive information on them. Me, when crap hits the fan in mid-air a tape of my cockpit is more likely to consist of “oh shit oh shit oh shit” and pitiful whimpering than “now I’m looking up the proper landing speed and flap configuration for landing a 757 in a cornfield. Let’s see - gear down or a belly landing, which should I choose?”

There WAS at least one pilot riding as a passenger on Flight 93. IF they were able to subdue the hijackers and IF he was able to reach the cockpit then I’m pretty sure he would have had a go at trying to regain control of the airplane - but if the situation had detriorated far enough it may not have been possible. As I said, we’ll never know. Just as we’ll never know quite what happened on Payne Stewar’s Lear jet. It doesn’t require a government conspiracy.

23

Hoping still that pilot141 will wander into this discussion, but in the meantime…

I have an acquaintance who is a commerical airline pilot (he currently flies as a co-pilot). He mentioned that he would shortly be taking some sort of certification exam that would allow him full command of a flight. Since I know bugger-all about such things, I asked if that meant that he would then be certified on any commercial plane. He said no, he could command any flight, but he was only instrument trained on (and capable of flying) Boeing 737s and Airbus 320s. He then went on to detail a number of differences in how the two types of aircraft handled, stating ultimately that he thought the 737 was much more forgiving of rough flight conditions than the A-320.

From what he told me, it seems that if you were to have the commerical jet pilot-as-passenger volunteer to help fly a plane in distress, it would not necessarily be a simple thing for a pilot trained on one type of jet to take over on a different type. However, I don’t know if it would be as serious a situation as a GA pilot or untrained person attempting the landing.

24

I have performed enough fuctional testing of the 737 Next Generation that with proper guidance, I could probably land one. I know where all the controls are and what they do, just doing them in the proper order would be my biggest problem.

25

One thing to remember is that you do not have to have a Cat IIIc ILS for autoland. All that is Cat IIIc is autoland, but not all that is autoland is Cat IIIc.

Small difference, but it gives you a lot more airports to choose from in the scenario.

26

But not always. On a Schweizer 300CB it’s the “trigger” in front of the stick – just like on a video game joystick. The Robinson R-22 has a T arrangement with two buttons on top. One is the intercom. Not that is matters, though; a helicopter is not an airliner, and if you don’t already know how to fly a helicopter when the pilot kicks the bucket, you’ll die.

27

My choice would be to contact someone on the radio and ask instructions to perform an automatic landing… and hope that gremlins aren´t present.
I´d probably recognize the different dials, instruments and navigation gadgets, but in no way I´d even dare to turn off the autopilot; an airliner has a rather narrow envolope of flight, to tight a turn too fast and everyone buys the farm.

28

When I was a youngster, I spent an afternoon in a DC-10 simulator, crashing repeatedly.

29

The 99’s have been running the ‘pinch hitter’ courses for wives of pilots for prolly over 30 years which focus solely on the airplane that they are usually flying in. As has been pointed out.

One of the problems with non type rated pilots and big birds is that they are so much different in a lot of ways. More or less it means that ANY airplane over 12,500 Lbs. Gross weight is considered different. And you have to get checked out in each and every one. Plus ‘jet’ is considered diff all by it self.

Two ways that seem to have a better chance is if you are solo in front of a big bird all of a sudden, and if you are a general aviation pilot and can get an rated pilot for that airplane who is at the airport you are going to try to land at, who is in the Tower and can see what you are doing, this raises the odds a lot.

Another thing is to have an identical airplane alongside talking you in. ( this has worked to some degree in small airplanes.)

To just jump in a Sim or for real big bird as a GA pilot and not have very good help and at least visual monitoring of the landing area, well as stated. Disaster… An identical plane along side would up your chances of success a lot.

When I was in the far east, (about helicopters) the pilots said if they got shot, to not try to land normally, but to do a run on approach at a regular airfield if we could get there. Much better chance of living though it. Most of us guys who went along a lot, got lots of stick time, except for hover where there were others to see that it was not the pilot flying. They really frowned on the pilots letting us enlisted guys mess with their $$$$ toys… LOL Flt. Ops was funny that way… :cool:

30

Am I correct in assuming that even if Joe Passenger figured out how to get an airliner to do a category 3 precision approach, he’d still have to figure out how to stop the plane once it touched down?

31

If Joe Passenger figured out how to do a Category 3 precision approach, it would most definitely be because someone told him how to do it over the radio. I would think it wouldn’t be too difficult for someone to explain how to use reverse thrusters and to depress the TOP of the foot pedals down to brake in that same radio conversation.

32

Here is a little secret,

It is not difficult to fly an aircraft. It is actually a fairly easy task in and of itself. I know because my father is an airline pilot and he made me take flying lessons for many years.

Personally, I hated flying airplanes. I do not like being in the air. I don’t like the sound or the popping in my ears. During the flight school, I had to accomplish power on stalls which scared the shit out of me.

Many pilots are arrogant people who think that because they can make a machine go up and down that they are more brilliant than anybody else. A monkey can fly a single engine Cessna and someone of normal intellegence can fly a jetliner with training. The hijackers in 911 did it, and they were complete idiots.

SP

33

pssst!.. The 99’s also provide “pinch hitter” courses for the husbands of pilots, too :slight_smile:

34

Yeah, but did he make you do the lessons in an airliner or a primary trainer?

Then don’t do it!

Oh, puh-LEEZ :rolleyes:

Yeah, there are arrogant jerks in aviation. They have 'em in LOTS of places. Ever talk to a surgeon? Just because they can hack someone open and sew them back together (or use a staple gun) they think they’re more brilliant than anyone else.

You are correct - a monkey can be trained to fly an airplane. (I would not want to be around when it solos, though). But most monkeys aren’t. And most humans aren’t. Pride in accomplishing something, in learning how to fly, is no different than someone being proud of their tennis serve or golf game.

And no, the hijackers for 9/11 were not idiots. Criminals, yes, but at least of normal intelligence. Except perhaps for the one nabbed in Minnesota before the attacks took place, he might be a brick short of a load.

35

And they had trained to fly, and they did not land.

36

Greetings everyone! I just got back from a trip (Boston, St Louis, Colorado Springs - what’s not to like?).

Excellent discussion so far. Jumping right in, I’ll say that while I never saw the article in Flying discussing piston pilots flying jets, my experience seems to indicate that trouble would follow.

I’ll use one example: my last job in the Air Force was flying the T-1 and training students how to fly. I got a good deal and went to Pensacola, FL for 4 months to fly the same airplane, but use it to train navigators instead of pilots. I flew in the left seat, student Nav in the right seat, instructor Nav in the jumpseat. We had sorties that the instructor Navs had to go on with just us so they could follow us through a set of stalls, steep turns, etc. Some of the Navs wanted to try landing the T-1. Because of the mission (lots of low-levels flown at 500 feet and 300 knots) there was a chance that we would hit a bird and the pilot would be incapacitated. Now, these navigators had all sorts of experience - from B-1 bomber guys to backseaters in F-14s and F-15Es. But without fail, they would have killed all of us attempting to land. The T-1 is not a large jet - it only weighs 15,000 lbs. But start jockeying those throttles around and yank that yoke close to the ground and you’re history. I ended up telling everyone I flew with that if I got taken out by a bird, hook up the autopilot, get vectored onto the ILS and let the jet land itself. All they had to do was pull the throttles to idle and brake to a stop.

What that means for this discussion is that the autopilot is the best friend that a motivated passenger could ever have. If (for the sake of discussion) it ever did come down to Joe and Jane average passenger sitting up front, the first priority would be (as stated before) to get in radio contact with someone. Most likely you wouldn’t need to change anything - just use the frequency already tuned in the radio (it’s probably also already selected on the comm panel), put on the headset (or turn on the speaker) and start talking to center. Once they realize what has happened you will get ALL KINDS of help. My guess is that you would get a quick and dirty education in autopilot operation. It’s much easier to say “twist that knob until you see 5000” than to actually descend and level off at 5,000 ft. The controller (or whoever he brought in who is familiar with your airplane) would then talk you through the descent - there would be a lot of punching of buttons and dialing of knobs, but no actual hand-flying of the jet. They would vector you onto an ILS for the longest runway available near you.

As someone else mentioned, if the airplane is autoland capable you don’t really need a Cat III or even a Cat II runway - any ILS will do. Just hook it up and press “autoland”. And even if the airplane isn’t technically capable of it, just letting the autopilot fly the ILS down until it hits the runway is very survivable - you’ll hit the ground at a descent rate of about 700 feet/minute. It will just feel like a hard landing.

As for stopping, if an airplane is autoland it most likely has autobrakes as well. If not, someone could be instructed fairly easily on how to use the brakes (you could even practice in the air to get a feel for it).

So, if for some reason this DID ever happen, I’d say the chances are pretty good you’d survive…IF you have an autopilot and no damage to the airplane. Get rid of the autopilot, or add in a control problem…that means (more) trouble.

37

Should I be worried that if I try to activate the radio using this method I might risk firing the airliner’s forward machine gun instead? :wink:

38

I kinda of got the idea of what a passengeer would go through. Several years ago I got a hour of bootleg time on the simulator for a Dornier 328 Not a jet, but a comerical plane non the less. prior to this I had never had my hands on the control of any plane.
During my hour I did four takeoffs, and landings. (plus some sight seeing, the graphics are stunning)
Anyway the first landing was a disaster, I think a dustpan would have been the tool of choice to pick up the pieces.
The second landing was slightly better, I think the pieces would have been large enough that a skip loader might have been necessary to clear the runway.
On the third landing we might have lived.
For the fourth landing, the IP put me in fog and had me fly instruments all the way to the deck. I did this and greased the landing (we were in full motion and it was a smooth landing). The instructor told me that that was a better landing than about 1/2 the students made the first time they were in fog.
So based on my experience, give me three warm-ups and some fog, and I’ll land your 777 :smiley:

39

“I am not aware of airliners being armed with ordnance of any kind; nor would I be at liberty to discuss such ordnance if I did possess such knowledge.” :wink:

40

Oh, yes. I remember you from this thread:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172349&perpage=50&pagenumber=2

I think we have established that you know nothing about driving or flying. Should we perhaps begin a boating thread so you can go three-for-three? :rolleyes: