# By What Logic Did Jesus Die For My Sins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724 "2002-11-07T15:38:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/41 "2002-11-08T19:09:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nishroch Order \* > \*\*I just love this quote, > > “We must question the story logic of an all-knowing, all-powerful God. Who creates faulty human beings and then blames them for his own mistakes.”-Gene Roddenberry \*\* I always thought God as being quite Machiavellian. Supposedly: He creates Satan, knowing he will do what he does and lose his right to heaven, and created a hell so that he could be tortured for something he was created to do. He then creates humans, knowing that Satan will lead them into losing their innocence, thus going to hell for their sins. (something he made up too) He allows humans to sin, and go to hell for those sins, and then comes along and pretends to die, saying “all those that believe in me, shall not feel Satans fire”, and we are all supposed to say “What a loving and compassionate God.” He could teach the prince a thing or two. Personally I like this quote by Thomas Paine: > [@](#): > > Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/42 "2002-11-08T19:13:15Z")
Diogonese wrote: > [@](#): > > What about it? The Bible is true because the Bible SAYS so? This is circular logic. Why is logic true? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/43 "2002-11-08T19:15:20Z")
Diogenes: Sorry for misspelling your name. But the question remains, and I’ll even put it a different way: why is circular logic a fallacy? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/44 "2002-11-08T19:25:48Z")
\*\*Rom. 5:12: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” \*\* I’ve often thought the story of Adam and Eve amusing, since they hadn’t ate from the Tree of knowledge yet to know what was good or evil. And of course, God being all-knowing knew that he had created them with enough temptation, that they would take the bait. That to me is the sin; not Adam and Eve eating the fruit. JZ ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/45 "2002-11-08T19:33:58Z")
\>Why would Diogenes be in hell? Why, because he was a heathen. 😉 \>why is circular logic a fallacy? Because you are asserting as proven the very conclusion that it is your duty to demonstrate. Logical argument is based on agreement. Part of the tacit contract is that all arguments will be based on premises on which both parties agree. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/46 "2002-11-08T19:37:01Z")
**The earliest gospel, Mark, was written about 70 CE.** It’s also important to note that in that present form, it was probably only a sketch. This is the view that ex-Catholic priest and scholar McCabe shares and said is the view of many scholars. The resurrection and other miracles came later. Which would make eye-witness testimony seem even more unlikely. JZ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/47 "2002-11-08T19:37:49Z")
> [@](#): > > why is circular logic a fallacy? Are you serious? Because it’s not really logic that’s why. it cannot be used to prove anything. Syllogistic logic is used to draw inferences from two or more predicates. (if A is true and B is true then C is true) Circular logic such as that above, attempts to use A to prove B and B to prove A. It nothing but a tautological loop. it is a two sided triangle. It is not demonstrably false, but it is logically worthless. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/48 "2002-11-08T19:38:50Z")
\>Why is Logic True? Logic isn’t true, per se. Logic is conceptual, not factual. It is a test of validity of argument, not factual accuracy. An argument can be logically valid and (its conclusions) factually false. Similarly, an argument can be fallacious and still have a factually true conclusion. Here is an excellent website: [http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/](http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/) ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/49 "2002-11-08T21:42:50Z")
If Jesus died for everyones sins why do some go to hell? ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/50 "2002-11-08T21:52:35Z")
Even the sin of unbelief would have been paid for. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/51 "2002-11-08T21:59:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NO\_FREEWILL \* > \*\*If Jesus died for everyones sins why do some go to hell? \*\* Because they don’t accept Him, trusting in His sacrifice for them.It’s a personal decision each person much make. Many people trust in their good works or other things but we can’t ever be good enough for all have sinned. Jesus didn’t fail. The way has been made. Anyone who wants eternal life, has it through acceptance of Jesus as Savior. He won’t force anyone to come. ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/52 "2002-11-08T22:28:38Z")
That sin would have been paid for ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/53 "2002-11-08T22:32:29Z")
'‘shed for many’'mat 26:28,NOT EVERYONE ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/54 "2002-11-08T23:36:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NO\_FREEWILL \* > \*\*That sin would have been paid for \*\* It’s not that the unbelief is a sin, exactly, in the way you mean it. If I offer you a gift, you still don’t have the gift unless you accept it. Salvation is offered us as a gift. (Not exactly my belief, btw, but that’s the conservative Christian viewpoint as I understand it.) Incidentally, on the “three days” thing: Heaven and Hell are usually said to exist “outside of time.” Three days passed on Earth before Jesus appeared there again. That has nothing to do with his experience of Hell. ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/55 "2002-11-08T23:39:33Z")
Don’t give me the 1 John 2:2 thing. That just means that there is only one payment for sins in the whole world.(jesus) ‘‘our sins’’ = jewish believers ,’‘whole world’’ = gentile nations (not every person) 1Jo 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation relating to our sins, and not relating to ours only, but also relating to all the world. This verse eliminates every other god allah,buddah and some cow in India. ---
**Author:** ![NO\_FREEWILL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@NO\_FREEWILL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NO_FREEWILL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/56 "2002-11-08T23:48:26Z")
Rom 3:10 according as it has been written, “There is not a righteous one, not even one!” Rom 3:11 “There is not one understanding; there is not one seeking God.” Rom 3:12 All turned away, they became worthless together, not one is doing goodness, not so much as one!" LXX-Psa. 13:1-3 Rom 3:13 “Their throat is a tomb being opened;” “they used deceit with their tongues; the poison of asps is under their lips; Rom 3:14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood; Rom 3:16 ruin and misery are in their way; Rom 3:17 and they did not know a way of peace; Rom 3:18 there is no fear of God before their eyes.” LXX-Psa. 5:10; 139:4; 9:28; Isa. 59:7, 8; Psa. 35:2; MT-Psa. 14:1-3; 5:9; 140:3; 10:7; Isa. 59:7, 8; Psa. 36:1 NO ONE WILL ‘‘ACCEPT’’ the gift. -Rom 3:11 “There is not one understanding; there is not one seeking God.” ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3e96dc/32.png) [@Mean\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/57 "2002-11-08T23:49:39Z")
Hi FearItself - You wrote: > [@](#): > > Can any of the Christian scholars out there offer anything that to support the claim that the death of Jesus in any way is a quid pro quo for my sins? First, Jesus’ payment for my sin is not **necessarily** quid pro quo. It is, however, **an acceptable sacrifice**. The difference is that God was not demanding payment for the sake of payment, but a payment aimed at accomplishing something in particular. In other words - the sins of the Christian are not paid for simply so that God can say they are. There is something that the sacrifice itself accomplishes that makes it worthwhile above and beyond mere payment for sin. The idea of Christ coming to earth to be a man and die for people’s sins wasn’t originated because God was by golly going to get payment. It happened because God wanted to provide a sacrifice - acceptable to Himself - that would atone for the sins of the people. Something, in other words, that would make them not only innocent but righteous in His sight. I hope I have not talked in circles too much just then. Hang with me. There is a lot of theology out there about what Christ’s work on the cross actually accomplished. Without going into the entirety and possibly boring you to death, the nutshell version of Protestantism is that Christ was the **substitutionary atonement** for the sins of the sheep. (You know that in the Bible those who belong to Christ are called sheep.) According to Christian theology, sin is **always** paid for. Either Christ paid for your sins on your behalf, or you are punished for them by going to hell. One of the ways that you can be sure Christ paid for your particular sins is that you believe it. That sounds circular as heck, but what you must realize is that all those for whom Christ died are given faith in Him by God. Faith is a gift - those without faith have not been given it. My Arminian brothers will squawk, but hey, I can’t say anything but what I am. And, in the grand scheme of things, this faith we have is exchanged for righteousness. And here is how it all works together. I guess you could say there are three great imputations in scripture: 1. Adam’s sin imputed to all men (the fall or original sin) 2. The sin of the saved imputed to Christ 3. The righteousness of Christ imputed to the saved. Adam’s sin didn’t just make us prone to doing bad things. It corrupted our character to the point where something drastic needed to be done in order for it to be fixed. You can read in Genesis where it says that this sin brought death into the world. Nothing died until Adam and Eve sinned. And, curiously, the first thing God did when they sinned was kill an animal. To cover them. This became the precedent for everything that would follow. In other words, God determined from the foundation of the world He’d send His son as a sacrifice and then set up things along the way that pointed to what Christ would do: the Passover lamb, for one. The system of sacrifices in OT Israel, for another. All this was laying the groundwork for the real atonement that would come along. Until the crucifixion, nobody’s sins were actually forgiven to the point of the sinner being made righteous. They were simply pardoned by the sacrifice of the animal. But once Christ came, who was sinless (theologians would say He did not have Adam’s blood line in Him and therefore did not inherit Adam’s sin), took our sin upon Himself. In fact, the only way Christ could die is by taking on our sin - after all, Paul says, the wages of sin is death. Death is caused by the fact that we are sinners. He took our sin. He bore the wrath of God to punish the sin. And, God considered it an acceptable sacrifice on our behalf. Christ raised from the dead - because He had conquered sin. And, He began His work of saving sinners based on the payment that had been made. He takes our stony hearts and gives us hearts of flesh. He makes us ‘new men’ and puts to death the old. And, since He has taken away the sin that causes death in us, we now have eternal life. There is much more to say but I’ve probably been confusing enough. I will try to remember to check back in case you want more information. But I have tried to simply paint the big picture and hopefully it sticks. I fully realize you may walk away not believing any of this, but at least you will have your answer about what Christianity says. Respectfully, MG ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/58 "2002-11-08T23:53:10Z")
Yes, I’m aware there are those who believe this way. I don’t share this belief because even though God desires everyone to be saved I don’t find the teaching in scripture that everyone will be saved. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:13-14 If all sin is automatically forgiven with no decision or action on our part, why this warning? He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36 How can the sin of unbelief or rejection of Christ be forgiven in the light of this scripture? He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18 To me,anyway, there’s no doubt that rejection of unbelief in Christ results in condemnation. Also, John 3:16 makes it clear that “whosover believeth” in him hath everlasting life. Anyone who will, may come. No one is restricted. His death paid for everyone’s sins. “Whosever” means anyone may believe if they choose to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3e96dc/32.png) [@Mean\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/59 "2002-11-08T23:57:41Z")
Hi FearItself - You wrote: > [@](#): > > Can any of the Christian scholars out there offer anything that to support the claim that the death of Jesus in any way is a quid pro quo for my sins? First, Jesus’ payment for my sin is not **necessarily** quid pro quo. It is, however, **an acceptable sacrifice**. The difference is that God was not demanding payment for the sake of payment, but a payment aimed at accomplishing something in particular. In other words - the sins of the Christian are not paid for simply so that God can say they are. There is something that the sacrifice itself accomplishes that makes it worthwhile above and beyond mere payment for sin. The idea of Christ coming to earth to be a man and die for people’s sins wasn’t originated because God was by golly going to get payment. It happened because God wanted to provide a sacrifice - acceptable to Himself - that would atone for the sins of the people. Something, in other words, that would make them not only innocent but righteous in His sight. I hope I have not talked in circles too much just then. Hang with me. There is a lot of theology out there about what Christ’s work on the cross actually accomplished. Without going into the entirety and possibly boring you to death, the nutshell version of Protestantism is that Christ was the **substitutionary atonement** for the sins of the sheep. (You know that in the Bible those who belong to Christ are called sheep.) According to Christian theology, sin is **always** paid for. Either Christ paid for your sins on your behalf, or you are punished for them by going to hell. One of the ways that you can be sure Christ paid for your particular sins is that you believe it. That sounds circular as heck, but what you must realize is that all those for whom Christ died are given faith in Him by God. Faith is a gift - those without faith have not been given it. My Arminian brothers will squawk, but hey, I can’t say anything but what I am. And, in the grand scheme of things, this faith we have is exchanged for righteousness. And here is how it all works together. I guess you could say there are three great imputations in scripture: 1. Adam’s sin imputed to all men (the fall or original sin) 2. The sin of the saved imputed to Christ 3. The righteousness of Christ imputed to the saved. Adam’s sin didn’t just make us prone to doing bad things. It corrupted our character to the point where something drastic needed to be done in order for it to be fixed. You can read in Genesis where it says that this sin brought death into the world. Nothing died until Adam and Eve sinned. And, curiously, the first thing God did when they sinned was kill an animal. To cover them. This became the precedent for everything that would follow. In other words, God determined from the foundation of the world He’d send His son as a sacrifice and then set up things along the way that pointed to what Christ would do: the Passover lamb, for one. The system of sacrifices in OT Israel, for another. All this was laying the groundwork for the real atonement that would come along. Until the crucifixion, nobody’s sins were actually forgiven to the point of the sinner being made righteous. They were simply pardoned by the sacrifice of the animal. But once Christ came, who was sinless (theologians would say He did not have Adam’s blood line in Him and therefore did not inherit Adam’s sin), took our sin upon Himself. In fact, the only way Christ could die is by taking on our sin - after all, Paul says, the wages of sin is death. Death is caused by the fact that we are sinners. He took our sin. He bore the wrath of God to punish the sin. And, God considered it an acceptable sacrifice on our behalf. Christ raised from the dead - because He had conquered sin. And, He began His work of saving sinners based on the payment that had been made. He takes our stony hearts and gives us hearts of flesh. He makes us ‘new men’ and puts to death the old. And, since He has taken away the sin that causes death in us, we now have eternal life. There is much more to say but I’ve probably been confusing enough. I will try to remember to check back in case you want more information. But I have tried to simply paint the big picture and hopefully it sticks. I fully realize you may walk away not believing any of this, but at least you will have your answer about what Christianity says. Respectfully, MG ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/60 "2002-11-09T00:00:21Z")
My above post is an response to **NO\_FREEWILL’s** post above stating the sin of unbelief is convered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724.md?page=4)