# By What Logic Did Jesus Die For My Sins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724 "2002-11-07T15:38:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/61 "2002-11-09T00:01:39Z")
Trying to get to the bottom line of this, it seems to me the old story of a group of people who think they are the only ones who know the truth and everyone who doesn’t agree with them will be horribly punished for eternity. This is all nonsense. I saw a cartoon of a man standing waist deep in autumn leaves, He had one in his hand, the leaf was saying: “I am THE leaf.” The only place the people of the world can come together in peace is at the point of “love one another.” Other religions also have consequences for disbelief, are we to be afraid of them. What utter confusion. God can not be for just one religion. Draw your picture of God for all mankind, for all ages, and the only logical God is one of love. No one is going to hell, unless of course they want to. In spirit form after losing the body, we are only conscious energy. Walking through fire will not burn us, rain will not make us wet, we will feel neither heat nor cold. We are free from the laws of the physical and the speeches of the fear mongers. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3e96dc/32.png) [@Mean\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/62 "2002-11-09T00:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, John 3:16 makes it clear that “whosover believeth” in him hath everlasting life. Anyone who will, may come. No one is restricted. His death paid for everyone’s sins. “Whosever” means anyone may believe if they choose to do so. No - what John says is that Jesus died for everyone who believes. Everyone limits the atonement. Calvinists limit it to the chosen. You limit it to those who believe. Either way it is still limited **to saved people**. I am sorry, but the Bible says Jesus died for the sheep. It does not say He died for the goats. Peace, MG ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3e96dc/32.png) [@Mean\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/63 "2002-11-09T00:40:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, John 3:16 makes it clear that “whosover believeth” in him hath everlasting life. Anyone who will, may come. No one is restricted. His death paid for everyone’s sins. “Whosever” means anyone may believe if they choose to do so. No - what John says is that Jesus died for everyone who believes. Everyone limits the atonement. Calvinists limit it to the chosen. You limit it to those who believe. Either way it is still limited **to saved people**. I am sorry, but the Bible says Jesus died for the sheep. It does not say He died for the goats. Peace, MG ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3e96dc/32.png) [@Mean\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/64 "2002-11-09T00:52:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, John 3:16 makes it clear that “whosover believeth” in him hath everlasting life. Anyone who will, may come. No one is restricted. His death paid for everyone’s sins. “Whosever” means anyone may believe if they choose to do so. No - what John says is that Jesus died for everyone who believes. Everyone limits the atonement. Calvinists limit it to the chosen. You limit it to those who believe. Either way it is still limited **to saved people**. I am sorry, but the Bible says Jesus died for the sheep. It does not say He died for the goats. Peace, MG ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3e96dc/32.png) [@Mean\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/65 "2002-11-09T01:11:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, John 3:16 makes it clear that “whosover believeth” in him hath everlasting life. Anyone who will, may come. No one is restricted. His death paid for everyone’s sins. “Whosever” means anyone may believe if they choose to do so. No - what John says is that Jesus died for everyone who believes. Everyone limits the atonement. Calvinists limit it to the chosen. You limit it to those who believe. Either way it is still limited **to saved people**. I am sorry, but the Bible says Jesus died for the sheep. It does not say He died for the goats. Peace, MG ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3e96dc/32.png) [@Mean\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/66 "2002-11-09T04:29:50Z")
Good grief, I apologize…it kept telling me the board was down and didn’t load…looks like it lied… SORRY, MG ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/67 "2002-11-09T13:45:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mean Girl \* > \*\* > > No - what John says is that Jesus died for everyone who believes. Everyone limits the atonement. Calvinists limit it to the chosen. You limit it to those who believe. Either way it is still limited **to saved people**. > > I am sorry, but the Bible says Jesus died for the sheep. It does not say He died for the goats. > > Peace, > MG \*\* God has no limits, no religion, the goats are welcome also. Who can speak for God, no one. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/68 "2002-11-09T14:10:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\* > Who can speak for God, no one. > > Love > Leroy \*\* Then will all you people shut up already! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/69 "2002-11-17T21:52:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > \*\* > > Then will all you people shut up already! 😉 \*\* I laughed when I read this. In an ideal world this would happen… I find it particularly ironic that certain people will screech and moan that other are going to hell for their _wrong_ interpretation of the bible. How do these certain people know these others are going to hell? From their own _wrong_ interpretation of the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Calenth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@Calenth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calenth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/70 "2002-11-17T21:59:43Z")
Read the original edition of Sir James Frazier’s “The Golden Bough.” Short version: Christ was sacrificed as a ritual scapegoat, taking on his back the ills of the world. It’s not a logical act, it’s a mythical/religious act, and makes about as much sense as any other blood sacrifice. A good analogy would be to the Carthaginian’s sacrifice of their firstborn children to Moloch, a type of sacrifice that clearly existed in the Judaic tradition – if it didn’t , there wouldn’t be a need for the story of Abraham _not_ sacrificing Isaac. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/71 "2002-11-19T00:20:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, if the Son of God sacrificed himself to an eternity in Hell, that would be something. Even I might have to repent. So, since He came back three days later, you assume that He could not have spent eternity in Hell. I am not so sure your assumption is valid. I have no opinion of my own on the duration of the Lord’s trials in Hell, but I am sure that if eternity is what is needed to redeem your soul, then that is what He will offer. Divine love is not a thing of human limitations. Logic is, though, so I can’t give you your logical answer. ## Tris “Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength; loving someone deeply gives you courage.” ~ Lao-Tzu ~ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/72 "2002-11-19T00:45:17Z")
> [@](#): > > So, since He came back three days later, you assume that He could not have spent eternity in Hell. I am not so sure your assumption is valid. I have no opinion of my own on the duration of the Lord’s trials in Hell, but I am sure that if eternity is what is needed to redeem your soul, then that is what He will offer. Divine love is not a thing of human limitations. Logic is, though, so I can’t give you your logical answer. You know, the gospels don’t actually say that Jesus went to hell. What are you basing your assertion on? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/73 "2002-11-19T01:00:37Z")
My only assertion was that whatever is needed to assure the salvation of each and all of us is what the Lord will provide. Logical evaluations of duration are simply misapplied. Whether or not Jesus went to Hell, or if in fact there is a Hell are simply not the point. If there is, and He did go there, the fact that he returned in three days is irrelevant when considering how long he remained there. Describing the Lord God in ways that fit into your expected limits is a search for a God-in-a-box. Such a thing has only disbelief as a possible use. Matters of the limits pertaining to God are outside of the limits of human minds. Be loved. Love every soul you meet in return. Understanding it all is beside the point. ## Tris “Cabbage: A familiar kitchen-garden vegetable about as large and wise as a man’s head.” ~ Ambrose Bierce ~ ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/74 "2002-11-19T13:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*You know, the gospels don’t actually say that Jesus went to hell. What are you basing your assertion on? \*\* I wish this board had Bible Help tools like another board I know does. I don’t have the reference at present, but I remember reading about Jesus descending into the lower parts of the earth and something about leading captivity captive. Remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus? In the afterlife they were in the same area but with a great gulf between the two. I’ve heard it called Abraham’s bosom. Lazarus was in a good place with Abraham and the rich man was being tormented. I think possibly during the time Jesus was dead, He went to this place and emptied out the one side and took them on to heaven. This is what I’ve heard some way happened anyway. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/75 "2002-11-19T13:18:02Z")
Don’t know if this’ll help but I looked up a couple Scriptures: Ephesians 4:8-10 Luke 16:19-31 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/76 "2002-11-19T14:22:16Z")
It would help if you posted the verses, as I don’t have a Bible handy. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/77 "2002-11-19T14:55:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Calenth \* > \*\*A good analogy would be to the Carthaginian’s sacrifice of their firstborn children to Moloch, a type of sacrifice that clearly existed in the Judaic tradition – if it didn’t , there wouldn’t be a need for the story of Abraham _not_ sacrificing Isaac. \*\* Eh? Have you read the story? The story is not the story of Abraham _not_ sacrificing Isaac, but the story of God making a special request and Abraham being willing to carry out this unusual and costly sacrifice. He had to tell him not to sacrifice Isaac because it was a test of Abraham and God clearly never intended him to sacrifice his son in the first place. But Abraham was willing and passed the test. There is no evidence of human sacrifice in the Judaic tradition. In fact, I believe this non-sacrifice is the only instance of it in the Torah or Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/78 "2002-11-19T15:09:52Z")
[Here](http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=luke+16%3A19-31&version=NIV) is the passage from Luke and here is the quote from Ephesians: > [@](#): > > Ephesians 4 > 8This is why it[1] says: > “When he ascended on high, > he led captives in his train > and gave gifts to men.”[2] 9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[3] ? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) The passage from Luke is the parable of the rich man which, H4E referred to. I’m not really sure why she cited it since it has nothing to do with the crucifixion, or with Jesus’ alleged descent into hell. (Also, as a side note, the word translated as “Hell” was actually “Hades” in Greek. So apparantly JC believed in the Pagan concept of the underworld.) The “descension” in Ephesians refers to the descent of God from heaven to earth. (How can he ascend to heaven if he didn’t descend to earth first.) It is not a reference to hell. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/79 "2002-11-19T15:40:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*It would help if you posted the verses, as I don’t have a Bible handy. \*\* Sorry, when I’m at work, don’t have as much time. Besides, I guess **Diogenes the Cynic** thinks these particular scriptures have nothing to do with what’s being talked about. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724/80 "2002-11-19T15:57:43Z")
Well, they really don’t, **His4ever**. Neither of them say Jesus went to hell after he died. Now then: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic_ > **Also, as a side note, the word translated as “Hell” was actually “Hades” in Greek. So apparantly JC believed in the Pagan concept of the underworld.** Well, yes. Except it wasn’t purely a pagan concept. The Jewish faith had a similar place called _Sheol_ in Hebrew. Basically it was a giant waiting room for the dead, similar to Hades. So the translation holds. Anyway, descended into hell is a mistranslation of Hades. Now you’ll notice that the modern translation of the Apostle’s Creed says descended to the dead. Which is a much more accurate description. Basically, it’s to say that Jesus really did die (after all, he descended to the place of the dead) and wasn’t just faking it. Hell isn’t an added sacrifice or anything, because it didn’t happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/by-what-logic-did-jesus-die-for-my-sins/135724.md?page=5)