[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Accipiter1 *
**What do you base this upon? Do you have a biblical support for this claim?
I don’t have any quotes right now, but I seem to remember that the bible does teach that God can hate as in the passage where it is attributed to God that he said of Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated (paraphrased-can’t remember the exact quote).
And nowhere have I read that God’s love is unconditional. Where is that at?
It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER. As it is written, JACOB HAVE I LOVED, BUT ESAU HAVE I HATED. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:12-16
Jesus did indeed become a curse for us: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.
Galatians 3:13
As usual, you are at odds with and don’t recognize what the scripture says. There is no balance in your thinking. Scripture proves that there is more to God than just love. It proves a sacrifice was required for us to have forgiveness and Jesus was that sacrifice and He knew it.
I’m not sure I totally understand the whole thing about hating Esau and loving Jacob. It may have a meaning I’m not aware of at the present. I’m not sure this is the kind of malicious hatred people can have for each other today. I doubt it, but I can’t explain it at present. One thing I know is that God is capable of hate because He hates sin.
I’ve done a text search throughout the rest of the Bible, and nowhere else except in Romans does this phrase appear. The author of Romans must have been referring to a text that does not appear in the canonical Bible.
I’ve never really understood this passage from Romans. Jacob was a sneaky little guy, who used deceit and trickery to first cheat Esau out of his birthright, and then deceived his father Isaac into giving him the deathbed blessing intended for Esau. This irks Esau to no end, and he threatens to kill Jacob.
After years of separation, Jacob and Esau are reunited, but instead of trouble, Jacob finds that Esau has forgiven him for his deceits. The brothers are reconciled, and Esau should be remembered as a Biblical figure that offered unconditional forgiveness.
(All this is in Genesis, His4Ever. The whole book of Genesis makes for interesting reading, actually.)
It’s a mystery to me why God would love the deceiver and hate the forgiver. But then again, the Bible is not a book free of contradictions. If God continues to hate Esau even after he freely offers his forgiveness to the brother that treated him so poorly, then something is seriously wacky with this divine being.
If anything, I would have expected Jesus in one of his sermons to hold Esau up as a model of a person who has learned the power of forgiveness.
There is complete balance in my thinking, God is Love, quiet simple and straightforward. Your quotes are all over the place, with contradictions galore. Jesus said He came to bring us abundant life, now does that sound like He is a curse.
You teach fear because fear is all you know. Seek God’s love and understand what abundant life really is like.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Polycarp *
**Actually, the implication of that question is not far off from the actual text of Genesis:
This post completely confuses me. Are you quoting the story of Adam and Eve as being factual or are you making fun of the blame passing? You state that you are a liberal Christain, which to me says you do not believe that the story is factual, however if it is foggy to me (a liberal), it must be to others as well.
Hmm, so I’m just to forget the part that says Jesus became a curse for us? I don’t think so. You’re not understanding that He took the curse of our sin upon Himself. You’re not understanding that God hates sin.
My religion doesn’t believe in Biblical literalism. We were always taught that we don’t necessarily know if it happened exactly as it was in the Bible.
It was the lesson it contained-the message that was more important.
Kniz – It doesn’t matter whether you read it as a factual historical account or not – I don’t; I rather suspect His4Ever and Vanilla do. But the point that all three of us would get out of it is the desire to avoid blame, to refuse to take responsibility for our own mistakes, is something that’s been with mankind since the beginning. It’s that indictment of human nature that makes the story of the Fall and the entry of Sin into human lives something that makes sense to me.
Read it as myth or literal truth, as you choose – but read it as deep insight into what makes people what they are.
Ah, but God is omniscient, is he not? He knew what the serpent would do before he ever created it. Therefore God, himself, is ultimately responsible for putting a creature into the world which he knew would corrupt Adam and Eve. Creating a sinful creature, when there was no sin before, is, in fact, creating sin.
Actually, come to think of it, I thought only humans had free will, not animals. So how could a serpent be a “sinner?” (And don’t try to claim he was Satan. The Bible doesn’t SAY that.)
His4ever said “The death of Jesus Christ is the performance in history of the very Mind of God. There is no room for looking on Jesus Christ as a martyr; His death was not something that happened to Him which might have been prevented. His death was the reason He came.”
IANATheist but I find this idea intriguing (if I may bend it to my liking). If our Reality is the working of God’s mind (or at least the part of God’s mind that is concerned with us) then the life of Jesus could be viewed as our perception of God’s thought process as he learned to forgive us.
It’s one of the things she’s said that I can agree with – if not completely. He came to be as one of us, as example and as teacher, and also to rise again after dying. A focus on the Crucifixion and Atonement to the exclusion of the promise fulfilled in the Resurrection and the guide to living in His example that His life includes is too narrow; it was one main reason but not the only one.
Probably get bashed for answering, but will any way.
I had a near death experience, called the “short death” by many who have been there. In that experience I stood in the presence of God, in His golden light of Love, Compassion, and Acceptance. There was a large amount of information I received while there, on this I base the nature of God. If only I, had this experience it would be suspect, but thousands have had NDEs with the same experiences of God’s love and acceptance, they were people of different religions, no religion, atheists, even criminals and murders. There is a large amount of literature on this subject.
I specifically asked if God punished people, the answer I got was: “no, people punish themselves, and they choose the form that punishment will take.” I know the experience was real because of many things that happened after it, confirming it.
One more thing, I know many think we are crazy or deceived, but they didn’t experience it. If all you have read about NDEs, appeared in the media by skeptical writers then you don’t really know about them. If you wish to know, read the experiences first hand from those who had them. There are several hundred available on the web. If you think they are delusions fine, don’t bother to write me, I understand already. As for the religious fanatics, they always believe the same thing, “work of the devil.”
I have heard it all. Please read the experiences, they will open your eyes to a different dimension of life, and you will find as I did, NDEs show the truth of Jesus’ teachings, and separate church doctrine from reality.
Thanks Poly, I agree up to the point it turns into “Original Sin”. Human nature is fine, but I don’t believe there is a “sin” gene (and don’t take that literally, please).
