# Bye Bye Belgium? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036 "2007-09-21T21:30:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/1 "2007-09-21T21:30:51Z")
> [@](#): > > “We are two different nations, an artificial state created as a buffer between big powers, and we have nothing in common except a king, chocolate and beer,” said Filip Dewinter, the leader of Vlaams Belang, or Flemish Bloc, the extreme-right, xenophobic Flemish party, in an interview. “It’s ‘bye-bye, Belgium’ time.” > > Radical Flemish separatists like Mr. Dewinter want to slice the country horizontally along ethnic and economic lines: to the north, their beloved Flanders — where Dutch (known locally as Flemish) is spoken and money is increasingly made — and to the south, French-speaking Wallonia, where a kind of provincial snobbery was once polished to a fine sheen and where today old factories dominate the gray landscape. > > “There are two extremes, some screaming that Belgium will last forever and others saying that we are standing at the edge of a ravine,” said Caroline Sägesser, a Belgian political analyst at Crisp, a socio-political research organization in Brussels. “I don’t believe Belgium is about to split up right now. But in my lifetime? I’d be surprised if I were to die in Belgium.” [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/21/world/europe/21belgium.html?em&ex=1190520000&en=f9c94d07ce2d20e3&ei=5087%0A) The Economist thinks it might not be a bad idea: > [@](#): > > The upshot was neither an unmitigated success nor an unmitigated failure. Belgium industrialised fast; grabbed a large part of Africa and ruled it particularly rapaciously; was itself invaded and occupied by Germany, not once but twice; and then cleverly secured the headquarters of what is now the European Union. Along the way it produced Magritte, Simenon, Tintin, the saxophone and a lot of chocolate. Also frites. No doubt more good things can come out of the swathe of territory once occupied by a tribe known to the Romans as the Belgae. For that, though, they do not need Belgium: they can emerge just as readily from two or three new mini-states, or perhaps from an enlarged France and Netherlands. > > Brussels can devote itself to becoming the bureaucratic capital of Europe. It no longer enjoys the heady atmosphere of liberty that swirled outside its opera house in 1830, intoxicating the demonstrators whose protests set the Belgians on the road to independence. The air today is more fetid. With freedom now taken for granted, the old animosities are ill suppressed. Rancour is ever-present and the country has become a freak of nature, a state in which power is so devolved that government is an abhorred vacuum. In short, Belgium has served its purpose. A praline divorce is in order. > > Belgians need not feel too sad. Countries come and go. And perhaps a way can be found to keep the king, if he is still wanted. Since he has never had a country—he has always just been king of the Belgians—he will not miss Belgium. Maybe he can rule a new-old country called Gaul. But king of the Gauloises doesn’t sound quite right, does it? [The Economist](http://economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9767681) I have to admit that I am largely ignorant of the current issues, but I find the possibility that a major(ish) European country might be no more within my lifetime. I, of course, think that if the country democratically decides to split up that it should be allowed to do so. What does everyone think about this? Will Belgium break up, and if so how will it do so? Will we see two new countries, an enlarged France or The Netherlands, or some combination thereof? Belgium to me is an interesting country. It was a mix-matched country to begin with, and likely wouldn’t have formed naturally. Despite that they manage to put together a great economy and competed with the big boys during the colonial times. It also has a disproportionate impact on European affairs due to it being between France and Germany. It would kind of suck to see them go (What would we call Belgian Waffles?), but I can see why they would want to split up. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/2 "2007-09-21T22:58:47Z")
[QUOTE=treis] I have to admit that I am largely ignorant of the current issues, but I find the possibility that a major(ish) European country might be no more within my lifetime. [/QUOTE] Well Checkoslovakia split up in about 1993 and Yugoslavia just before that. If they do split I can’t see either France or the Netherlands being particularly keen to take on Flanders and Wallonia respectively. The standard of living is apparently much lower and there is quite high unemployment in Wallonia. Anyway, a country that puts mayonaise on its chips needs sorting out one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/3 "2007-09-21T23:08:15Z")
What’s weird is that I almost posted a thread with a title identical to this one. It must suggest itself. Seems like these days with the common market and common currency that’s it’s almost immaterial if Belgium is one country or two. I think maybe the French half should throw in its lot with Luxembourg, and the Flemish half should go with Liechtenstein. Imagine the comic-opera frothiness of a soccer match between Wallonia-Luxembourg and Flanders-Liechtenstein. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/4 "2007-09-21T23:57:00Z")
[QUOTE=Vetch] If they do split I can’t see either France or the Netherlands being particularly keen to take on Flanders and Wallonia respectively. The standard of living is apparently much lower and there is quite high unemployment in Wallonia. [/QUOTE] Belgium has a higher GDP per capita than either France or the Netherlands. It would at least be beneficial for one of France or the Netherlands to take on their portion of Belgium. [QUOTE=Vetch] Well Checkoslovakia split up in about 1993 and Yugoslavia just before that. [/quote] That’s true, but I consider that just continued fall out from the fall of the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/5 "2007-09-21T23:59:36Z")
[QUOTE=Vetch] Anyway, a country that puts mayonaise on its chips needs sorting out one way or another. [/QUOTE] Maybe this will help them catch up. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/6 "2007-09-22T00:02:19Z")
No slight intended to the Belgians, but if Belgium is a “major(ish)” European country, what qualifies as a _minor_ European country? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/7 "2007-09-22T00:16:27Z")
If they split up, it’s their own fault, with that name. I mean, what would intergalactic travelers THINK of us, when they see a country with that name? What sort of barbarians would call a country THAT WORD? ---
**Author:** ![Baffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@Baffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baffle)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/8 "2007-09-22T00:53:35Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] No slight intended to the Belgians, but if Belgium is a “major(ish)” European country, what qualifies as a _minor_ European country? [/QUOTE] San Marino, and Moldova. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/9 "2007-09-22T00:55:28Z")
But… but… what are we gonna do on Tuesday? ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/10 "2007-09-22T00:56:27Z")
I have never really understood. Would NL and France really want to take up their parts? If we ended up with Belgium being TWO countries then it would just be ridiculous. I don’t know much about the Walloons and the Vlaams to say whether or not they have much to do with it. I have heard, from a french friend, that the French part of Belgium is akin to comparing America and Canada. Eerily similar. I suppose if Canada was in a similar situation, would they have any gripe with joining America? I think the Canadians would, but their situation is different. They aren’t being torn apart from both sides. They are simply repelling Americanism because it’s the only thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/11 "2007-09-22T01:37:48Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] I have never really understood. Would NL and France really want to take up their parts? If we ended up with Belgium being TWO countries then it would just be ridiculous. I don’t know much about the Walloons and the Vlaams to say whether or not they have much to do with it. I have heard, from a french friend, that the French part of Belgium is akin to comparing America and Canada. Eerily similar. [/quote] Really, what’s the difference between being a part of France and not? The biggest advantage would be economic, but with the EU the difference is minimal. I think it would be better to just be your own country and set your own laws. Perhaps they could become an autonomous region of France. Unify the military and such but keep most of the government separate. The Vlaams would be in a better position because if they joined the Netherlands it would be much closer to a merger, whereas it would be more of an annexation by France. They also have a big advantage in (presumably) bringing Antwerp where ever they go. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/12 "2007-09-22T01:48:20Z")
[QUOTE=treis] Really, what’s the difference between being a part of France and not? The biggest advantage would be economic, but with the EU the difference is minimal. I think it would be better to just be your own country and set your own laws. Perhaps they could become an autonomous region of France. Unify the military and such but keep most of the government separate. The Vlaams would be in a better position because if they joined the Netherlands it would be much closer to a merger, whereas it would be more of an annexation by France. They also have a big advantage in (presumably) bringing Antwerp where ever they go. [/QUOTE] I agree, although it’s hard to imagine a merger in either case. It’s funny, because in some sense the EU can be seen as a reason to split up, but in other senses it can be seen as a reason not to. This is rather interesting, and I didn’t know there was so much consternation in Belgium. The linked article suggests that separatism is more strongly favored by the Flemish, and not so strongly favored by the Walloons. What if one side wants out and the other doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/13 "2007-09-22T01:52:14Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] This is rather interesting, and I didn’t know there was so much consternation in Belgium. The linked article suggests that separatism is more strongly favored by the Flemish, and not so strongly favored by the Walloons. What if one side wants out and the other doesn’t? [/QUOTE] 150 years ago that would have caused a European war. Anyways, I gather that the two “countries” are basically autonomous from each other. There hasn’t been a national government for 3 months and no one seems to care that much. If one side wants out while the other doesn’t I’d imagine that power would be even more divested from the national government. I mean, I can’t imagine a shooting civil war would break out in Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/14 "2007-09-22T01:56:05Z")
[QUOTE=treis] 150 years ago that would have caused a European war. Anyways, I gather that the two “countries” are basically autonomous from each other. There hasn’t been a national government for 3 months and no one seems to care that much. [/quote] That’s pretty funny, when you think about it. Nobody seems to care. Sometimes centralized governments take themselves too seriously in a federal system, which appears to be what they have. > [@](#): > > If one side wants out while the other doesn’t I’d imagine that power would be even more divested from the national government. I mean, I can’t imagine a shooting civil war would break out in Belgium. Neither can I. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/15 "2007-09-22T02:01:54Z")
[QUOTE=treis] I mean, I can’t imagine a shooting civil war would break out in Belgium. [/QUOTE] If it should come to that, remember that Herstal is in the French part, and place your bets accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/16 "2007-09-22T02:37:08Z")
No they can’t be two seperate countries, because if you did that, then you’d have the Catalans, and the Basques and the Provenciales and the Bavarians, and the Valencians, and the Scottish and the Welsh and nearly anyone else who has the desire to make their own little country nowadays. Belgium was a stretch to begin with but now it’s not plausible. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/17 "2007-09-22T02:40:58Z")
Whats wrong with having the Catalans, and the Basques and the Provenciales and the Bavarians, and the Valencians, and the Scottish and the Welsh? If you can get a reasonable sized geographic/population area together that want to be their own country why not? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/18 "2007-09-22T02:43:11Z")
There are Basque and Scottish independence movements already. And there may be others, but I don’t know anything about them. Why should the Belgians stay together because of what the Catalans want? ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/19 "2007-09-22T03:03:51Z")
Well, I don’t actually care, but at some point you have to realize that it’s better to focus on the things that unite people rather than those that divide you. If you had to divide every European nation into its constituent parts you’d end up with over a hundred collections of principalities, which would then probably further want to split off. The Valencians and Catalans can’t agree to have a unified front in their independence movements from Spain. Next thing you’ll have even further parts wanting to split up. But if that’s where Europe wants to go, then I guess I don’t care. I just think it’s silly, At some point you have to stop drawing lines and say, okay, we might be slightly different, but yes, we can share a country. Then there will be a country with at least two people. The EU is a huge complicated regulatory mess as it is without each member state subdividing into its constituent parts. I would certainly love for my part of the US to be its own country but I also realize that living in the US is probably much better for things to remain as they are. And besides, France and NL taking up the respective parts is a lot tidier. One less country to remember! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2007, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036/20 "2007-09-22T03:18:47Z")
Has seperation ever really worked out for any country? It seems that in most cases the whole really is greater than the sum of the parts. Belgium might be a third rate country but Flanders and Wallonia will be a couple of fifth rate countries. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bye-bye-belgium/420036.md?page=2)