# C and CH in English vs Italian **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 14, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672 "2012-10-14T05:55:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/1 "2012-10-14T05:55:27Z")
In English words with C usually have a K sound while words with a CH have a CH sound - perhaps it is the same in some other languages. In Italian and perhaps some other languages it is exactly reversed. I was wondering how that could happen. Having different sounds for the same letter is weird enough but having the sounds from two types of letters have the exact opposite sounds for each is bizarre. Is it like American english where they just deliberately wanted to be different to UK english (something like that) ? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/2 "2012-10-14T06:09:11Z")
I’m not so sure it’s as clear cut as you make it out to be. The “ch” dipthong almost as commonly makes the sound like in “choose” as it does in “school”. Similarly, ‘c’ alone can make a sound like a k, an s. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/3 "2012-10-14T06:11:17Z")
Ok so for school the “CH” is similar to the “CH” in Italian… ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/4 "2012-10-14T06:48:43Z")
And it’s not that clear-cut in Italian, either. Ca-, co-, and cu- are all hard c sounds; only ce- and ci- are the English ch- sound. In Italian, the “h” functions with the c and g simply as an indicator of hard or soft pronunciation. Similar to how the “u” in Spanish changes the g sound to hard. I have to assume these all evolved quite independently of each other, and especially independent of English pronunciation and orthography. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/5 "2012-10-14T07:48:36Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Ok so for school the “CH” is similar to the “CH” in Italian… There are four pronunciations of “ch” in English: **ch** urch (Germanic or Spanish words) **ch** emistry (Greek) ma **ch** ine (French) lo **ch** (Gaelic) I think your question is a very interesting one. Why did English choose to represent the sound of “church” with a c+h digraph? And in general, why is there a collection of consonant digraphs in English with consonant+h (“ch”,“th”,“ph”)? I think the answer to that second question is that Latin chose to represent the Greek letters chi, theta and phi with those digraphs, and then they were established and “available” for European languages to adopt for their own needs. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/6 "2012-10-14T12:54:29Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > And it’s not that clear-cut in Italian, either. Ca-, co-, and cu- are all hard c sounds; only ce- and ci- are the English ch- sound. And in English, ca-, co-, and cu- are all also hard c sounds (there may be exceptions but I can’t think of any). And ce- and ci- are the English soft c (although when preceded by s they are sometimes pronounced as sh, such as _prescient_, which also the case in Italian). ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/7 "2012-10-14T20:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Having different sounds for the same letter is weird enough Given that English has north of 40 sounds and only 26 letters, it’s hardly weird. Letters loosely correlate to sounds, but pronunciations change and spelling is often preserved. This could just be a case of a palatal consonant shifting to a velar stop in some situations and an alveolar affricate in others, but I don’t know much about Italian. And I continue to hate kindergarten teachers for teaching this hard/soft nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/8 "2012-10-14T20:59:40Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > And I continue to hate kindergarten teachers for teaching this hard/soft nonsense. Yeah, “hard” and “soft” are not terms in phonetics, but primary education misleads our citizens to think that they are. The terms you want are: Italian _ca_, _che_, _chi_ _co_, _cu_; English _k_: velar stop Italian _cia_, _ce_, _ci_, _cio_, _ciu_; English _ch_: palatal affricate Please note that the letter _i_ in three of the above Italian examples (_cia_, _cio_, _ciu_) is not pronounced as a vowel; it’s there only to mark the palatal affricate pronunciation. Therefore _ciabatta_, _focaccia_, and the Italian form of my name, _Giovanna_, have only 3 syllables each, not 4. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/9 "2012-10-14T21:19:20Z")
Ah so it stays palatal. I don’t have a good ear for those. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/10 "2012-10-14T23:13:00Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Given that English has north of 40 sounds and only 26 letters, it’s hardly weird. I mean how different letters have different sounds between different languages. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/11 "2012-10-15T03:00:13Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Therefore _ciabatta_, _focaccia_, and the Italian form of my name, _Giovanna_, have only 3 syllables each, not 4. And _bruschetta_ is obviously pronounced broosketta, but waiters look at you like you’re from outer space. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/12 "2012-10-15T09:00:37Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > And _bruschetta_ is obviously pronounced broosketta, but waiters look at you like you’re from outer space. Oh, brother, _don’t get me started_. :mad: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/13 "2012-10-15T09:58:24Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Oh, brother, _don’t get me started_. :mad: 😃 I blame Geddy Lee’s uncle. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/14 "2012-10-15T12:07:24Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > And it’s not that clear-cut in Italian, either. Ca-, co-, and cu- are all hard c sounds; only ce- and ci- are the English ch- sound. In Italian, the “h” functions with the c and g simply as an indicator of hard or soft pronunciation. Similar to how the “u” in Spanish changes the g sound to hard. > > I have to assume these all evolved quite independently of each other, and especially independent of English pronunciation and orthography. Uh, I would have said in Spanish the “u” makes the “g” be a “soft” g rather than a “hard” j. (I know that’s not truly the phonetic terms, it’s the ones we used in school before getting to the year where we had phonetics - I’m afraid I never understood more than half of the technical terms; actually, in our case it was “weak/soft” and “strong/harsh”). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/15 "2012-10-15T13:11:27Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Uh, I would have said in Spanish the “u” makes the “g” be a “soft” g rather than a “hard” j. (I know that’s not truly the phonetic terms, it’s the ones we used in school before getting to the year where we had phonetics - I’m afraid I never understood more than half of the technical terms; actually, in our case it was “weak/soft” and “strong/harsh”). Interesting. Well, the “j” is pronounced “harsher” in Spain (where it’s not far from the “ch” in Scottish English “loch”) than it is in, say, Mexico (where it’s basically like an English “h”), so I can see how the “g” sound (as in “guerra”) could be considered in some sense “softer”. This would be reinforced by the fact that the same “g” phoneme, for many Spanish speakers, truly is “soft” to the point of almost disappearing, in certain situations – namely, before the sound spelled “w” in English. Thus, all those “Guada-” place names, from an Arabic word for “water” (or is it “river?”), a word usually written in English as “wadi”. And, thus, the “guey”/“buey” confusion among Mexican hipsters. And, the tee shirts in a font created for a certain 1977 film which read: “Estar Guars” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/16 "2012-10-15T13:16:44Z")
Other examples of the disappearing “g” sound before “w” sound: huaraches/guaraches, Huatulco/Guatulco, and huamil/guamil all being acceptable alternatives, in certain regions and/or in certain eras. Okay, I’ll stop there. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/17 "2012-10-15T13:46:15Z")
You left out _güiski_, also known as \*juiki \*or _juiski_ and sometimes pronounced _uiski_ 🙂 And IIUC, the guada is river. Funnily enough, we now have wadis in Spain - but they’re something that’s called arroyos in the American SW (in Spain an arroyo is a tiny rivulet, but one that’s permanent; the wadis are dry in the dry season). ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/18 "2012-10-15T13:48:42Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > You left out güiski, also known as juiki or juiski 🙂 Guatever! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/19 "2012-10-15T13:52:35Z")
No no that’s _guadeba_. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672/20 "2012-10-15T14:31:31Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No no that’s _guadeba_. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-and-ch-in-english-vs-italian/637672.md?page=2)