# \*C\*ertain & SHocking CHange: Why did romance languages have palatization? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 21, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-ertain-shocking-change-why-did-romance-languages-have-palatization/503770 "2009-07-21T20:09:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Wikipedia_Cites)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-ertain-shocking-change-why-did-romance-languages-have-palatization/503770/1 "2009-07-21T20:09:17Z")
Word on the street is that in Latin, ‘c’ was always pronounced ‘hard’, on the back of the tongue. But later as Latin turned to Romance, and then split into its romantic languages, the c was “palatized” and in some languages became an ‘s’ (or ‘th’ in Castillian) sound, pronounced quite differently, with the tip of the tongue Latin also doesn’t seem to have the “sh shut” or “ch in choose” sounds [_Cicero; Caesar_; but Italian itself has these. _Gnocchi, sforza, Cacciatore_ Ok, so why did people start to move to the palate? It’s quite a difference not only in sound, but in how your tongue moves. Between the spanish \*Hago \*(one of the exceptions, the preserved original form) and _Hace_, the tongue is totally different in its placement. So did some freak decide to change this because he wanted to get some exercise on both parts of his tongue? Who or what is responsible? It seems strange that so many centuries of hard consonants would be so fundamentally change. What caused this SHocking CHange? Why would so many languages so fundamentally change? ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-ertain-shocking-change-why-did-romance-languages-have-palatization/503770/2 "2009-07-22T22:15:17Z")
Bumping this because I find these sort of threads interesting. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-ertain-shocking-change-why-did-romance-languages-have-palatization/503770/3 "2009-07-22T23:35:53Z")
The source of most sound changes: [Grimm’s Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law) ---
**Author:** ![sundog66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@sundog66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sundog66)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-ertain-shocking-change-why-did-romance-languages-have-palatization/503770/4 "2009-07-23T04:19:47Z")
Palatalization took place only before front vowels, that is, /e/ and /i/. After /u/, /o/, and /a/, the sound remained a velar stop (/k/). That’s part of the reason why the letter ‘c’ has more than one pronunciation in English. Palatalization before front vowels is a commonly found phonological change. It may have to do with ease of articulation. When you’re preparing to bring your tongue forward for a front vowel, the preceding consonant concomitantly becomes more front in anticipation. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-ertain-shocking-change-why-did-romance-languages-have-palatization/503770/5 "2009-07-23T14:10:34Z")
> [@sassyfras](#): > > Latin also doesn’t seem to have the “sh shut” or “ch in choose” sounds [_Cicero; Caesar_; but Italian itself has these. _Gnocchi, sforza, Cacciatore_ I am not anything resembling a linquist but how do we know how these were pronounced back then? Also, the words to the Christmas hymn “Gloria in excelsis Deo” are pronounced today “ex-CHEL-sis” like “choose.” Is that a modern affectation? Or an accurate rendering of ancient Latin? (BTW not sure what you’re getting at with including sforza in the example, since it doesn’t have a “c” and would be pronounced like “SFOR-tsa”.) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-ertain-shocking-change-why-did-romance-languages-have-palatization/503770/6 "2009-07-23T14:22:16Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I am not anything resembling a linquist but how do we know how these were pronounced back then? Also, the words to the Christmas hymn “Gloria in excelsis Deo” are pronounced today “ex-CHEL-sis” like “choose.” Is that a modern affectation? Or an accurate rendering of ancient Latin? > > (BTW not sure what you’re getting at with including sforza in the example, since it doesn’t have a “c” and would be pronounced like “SFOR-tsa”.) One of the ways is when Latin words are written in Greek letters. If they use a kappa, it’s a pretty good clue that the [c] is hard. The “ex-CHEL-sis” pronunciation isn’t modern, but it certainly isn’t classical. I seem to recall that the change occurred in the Late Antique period, and it was certainly around by the medieval era. “Sforza” is probably from _dis_ + _forc-_. Most of the Italian sb-, sg-, etc. reflect a loss of initial sounds rather than a continuation of Latin. **sundog66** ’s explanation for “why palatalization” is spot on. Why sound change, though, is a mystery. Substate influence / adstate influence / random factors, there are a lot of possibilities and it can’t always be pinned down. It’s not odd that a language (like Latin) should be short on fricatives. Nor is it odd that a daughter language (like Italian) should gain them. The Slavic languages underwent a couple of palatalizations, but in different ways with a completely different outcome. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/c-ertain-shocking-change-why-did-romance-languages-have-palatization/503770/7 "2009-07-23T18:45:08Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > (BTW not sure what you’re getting at with including sforza in the example, since it doesn’t have a “c” and would be pronounced like “SFOR-tsa”.) I want to know why “gnocchi” was included! (“ch” in Italian is pronounced /k/)