# CA/AZ/FL Gay Marriage Balloting Reaction Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073 "2008-11-04T16:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![rooostra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@rooostra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rooostra)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/161 "2008-11-05T22:19:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, but the only other alternative is minority tyranny. I guess we have to learn to live with it. No, that is not the only alternative. We have a system that is supposed to check against both extremes. The ease with with the California constitution can be amended by a simple vote simply highlights the inadequacy of the current checks. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/162 "2008-11-05T22:38:20Z")
There is bigotry in this country, and it needs to be peeled away like layers of onion. There are many ways to peel an onion. Newsom’s approach to peeling that onion, some might say, is like taking a knife and making a stabbing slice through a few layers. In and of itself, that slice may not function to peel many layers off, but the cut he has helped to make has now been filled with thousands of couples who have married legally. The way I see it, there are at least 4 tangents of social change that such action catalyzes, in no particular order: - Media coverage and increased awareness of the marriage equality and gay rights movement among the general public - Heightened awareness of the marriage equality and gay rights movement for the friends, family, acquaintances, employers (etc…) of the couples who married legally since the Spring. - Heightened awareness of the marriage equality and gay rights movement for the legal and legislative systems - Heightened awareness of the opposition and of just what the arguments are (or rather lack thereof) against marriage equality and gay rights. All of these things function to help the movement gain traction and get a grip on the edges of those layers of the onion. To blame Newsom et al for Prop 8 passing, imho, is to ignore the first three items and see only a narrow view of what is actually taking place in the fourth item. “Because Newsom was a smug activist politico and he pissed us off” or “because children are being exposed to same sex marriage and…that’s just wrong!” are not compelling arguments against the broader movement, and if Prop 8 passes the movement will move on, whether anyone likes it or not. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/163 "2008-11-05T22:47:38Z")
> [@rooostra](#): > > No, that is not the only alternative. We have a system that is supposed to check against both extremes. The ease with with the California constitution can be amended by a simple vote simply highlights the inadequacy of the current checks. Exactly. California’s initiative process amounts to glorified mob rule. This is exactly what the Founding Fathers feared. Anyone with enough money can [del]buy signatures[/del] pay for others to collect signatures, bypass the legislature and get whatever crack pot proposal they want on the ballot. They don’t even need to live in California. Now we just need someone to bankroll a ban on divorce on the ballot; that’ll do even more to “protect traditional marriage”.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/164 "2008-11-05T22:58:41Z")
> [@jellyblue](#): > > Thanks for the kind sentiments. I’m so depressed, though, and I don’t want to be. I want to be happy because Obama won, and I am, but I can’t shake feeling like I just found out everybody at work who I smile and say hi to everyday has been secretly hating me. Judging from the evidence, they do. Sorry. > [@DrDeth](#): > > It wasn’t bigotry as shown by the vote for Obama in CA. That just means that McCain was unpopular enough to lose. It doesn’t mean much about racial bigotry, and it means nothing about anti-gay bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/165 "2008-11-05T23:09:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Your definition of bigotry apparently differs from mine. Or are you under the impression that one cannot be homophobic without being racist? Ignorance is not homophobia. It’s _ignorance._ ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_Mann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rich\_Mann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rich_Mann)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/166 "2008-11-05T23:15:23Z")
IANAL, but mightn’t it be better in the long run if they try to take away the status of those same sex couples already legally married? It would be something to take to the SCOTUS, where the whole thing might be overturned. Or am I being naive? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/167 "2008-11-05T23:15:32Z")
It’s _still_ not over. [Cite.](http://www.mercurynews.com/elections/ci_10906871) > [@Ensign Edison](#): > > I don’t understand why everyone who supported the candidate who thinks gay people should not get married because God doesn’t like it is surprised at this. That’s a centrist campaign position intended to win swing votes. I’m pretty sure Sen. Obama has expressed support for same-sex marriage before outside of the context of a presidential campaign. > [@want2know](#): > > pro-GM Pro-SSM, please. (Bueller? Bueller?) > [@want2know](#): > > And is there still the possibility of a lawsuit to overturn the results on the basis of discrimination? Example: let’s say a random state decides to place a measure on the ballot defining marriage as a union between a man and a woman of the same race? And let’s say further that by some chance, the electorate passes it? It would never survive a court challenge–so why should this? I know that’s an extreme example, but, to my mind, discrimination is discrimination. That’s the idea, and lawsuits are already being filed with this exact thing in mind. > [@DrDeth](#): > > However, idiots who did things like taught Gay marriage to 2nd graders and took kids on field trips to gay marriages were a proximate cause. Same-sex marriage, please, and: (a) Nobody has “taught” same-sex marriage to second graders. There is no curriculum in California public schools re marriage of any kind. Don’t buy into the very same lies that you accuse others of being susceptible to. (b) The same-sex wedding (singular, not plural) was a field trip which parents had the choice to opt their children out of. The parents and children involved were overwhelmingly supportive, and IIRC they sued Yes on 8 to stop them using that case in their campaign. > [@John Mace](#): > > Yeah, but the only other alternative is minority tyranny. Or, you know, not allowing a freakin’ _Constitution_ to change on a political whim. > [@DrDeth](#): > > It wasn’t bigotry as shown by the vote for Obama in CA. Racial bigotry and orientation bigotry are not two peas in the same pod. It is quite possible to have one without the other. > [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > gay rights movement LGBT rights movement, please. By the way, for those of you in San Diego, there will be a rally at the Center at 6:30 tonight. I expect to see you all there! ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/168 "2008-11-05T23:24:55Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > That’s a centrist campaign position intended to win swing votes. I’m pretty sure Sen. Obama has expressed support for same-sex marriage before outside of the context of a presidential campaign. Oh, I see. Somehow you think that if he panders to the other guy, that proves he’s not pandering to you. Forgive me if I don’t find the “oh, he’s just lying to get votes” argument a compelling reason to feel _better_ about it. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/169 "2008-11-05T23:32:21Z")
> [@Rich\_Mann](#): > > IANAL, but mightn’t it be better in the long run if they try to take away the status of those same sex couples already legally married? > > It would be something to take to the SCOTUS, where the whole thing might be overturned. Or am I being naive? If an attempt at invalidating existing same-sex marriage makes to SCOTUS and SCOTUS oveturns in it’ll just mean Prop 8 can’t be applied retroactively. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/170 "2008-11-05T23:33:56Z")
Looks like the [ACLU is getting onboard](http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/relationships/37706prs20081105.html)and they’re going for that avenue mentioned earlier: > [@](#): > > SAN FRANCISCO – The American Civil Liberties Union, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights filed a writ petition before the California Supreme Court today urging the court to invalidate Proposition 8 if it passes. The petition charges that Proposition 8 is invalid because the initiative process was improperly used in an attempt to undo the constitution’s core commitment to equality for everyone by eliminating a fundamental right from just one group – lesbian and gay Californians. Proposition 8 also improperly attempts to prevent the courts from exercising their essential constitutional role of protecting the equal protection rights of minorities. According to the California Constitution, such radical changes to the organizing principles of state government cannot be made by simple majority vote through the initiative process, but instead must, at a minimum, go through the state legislature first. > > The California Constitution itself sets out two ways to alter the document that sets the most basic rules about how state government works. Through the initiative process, voters can make relatively small changes to the constitution. But any measure that would change the underlying principles of the constitution must first be approved by the legislature before being submitted to the voters. That didn’t happen with Proposition 8, and that’s why it’s invalid. > > “If the voters approved an initiative that took the right to free speech away from women, but not from men, everyone would agree that such a measure conflicts with the basic ideals of equality enshrined in our constitution. Proposition 8 suffers from the same flaw – it removes a protected constitutional right – here, the right to marry – not from all Californians, but just from one group of us,” said Jenny Pizer, a staff attorney with Lambda Legal. “That’s too big a change in the principles of our constitution to be made just by a bare majority of voters.” > > “A major purpose of the constitution is to protect minorities from majorities. Because changing that principle is a fundamental change to the organizing principles of the constitution itself, only the legislature can initiate such revisions to the constitution,” added Elizabeth Gill, a staff attorney with the ACLU of Northern California. Hang in there, there’s hope yet! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/171 "2008-11-05T23:42:11Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Pro-SSM, please. (Bueller? Bueller?) > Same-sex marriage, please, and: > > (a) Nobody has “taught” same-sex marriage to second graders. There is no curriculum in California public schools re marriage of any kind. Don’t buy into the very same lies that you accuse others of being susceptible to. > > (b) The same-sex wedding (singular, not plural) was a field trip which parents had the choice to opt their children out of. The parents and children involved were overwhelmingly supportive, and IIRC they sued Yes on 8 to stop them using that case in their campaign. > LGBT rights movement, please. > ] Apparently it occured in Mass, not CA. Yes, but that doesn’t matter why or to who. It still happened and it was a stupid idea. And- it’s nice you prefer to use a particular set of PC terminology. Don’t correct others, however. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Daffyd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daffyd/32/8923_2.png) [@Daffyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daffyd)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/172 "2008-11-06T00:03:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Apparently it occured in Mass, not CA. > > Yes, but that doesn’t matter why or to who. It still happened and it was a stupid idea. Oh, I forgot, us Gays and Lesbians are just supposed to shut up about getting married and not force the poor heterosexuals to hear about our lives. Talk about blaming the victim. Why do I keep thinking of white people in the past telling black people how they “should” behave so they’ll be accepted? There is absolutely nothing stupid about a group of students being invited and going to a teacher’s wedding - gay or straight. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/173 "2008-11-06T00:07:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but that doesn’t matter why or to who. It still happened and it was a stupid idea. So, we could have gay marriage, but only if we don’t ever let anyone know we have gay marriage? There’s something stupid in your post, that’s for sure, but I don’t think its the Massachusetts field trip. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/174 "2008-11-06T00:43:16Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > Oh, I see. Somehow you think that if he panders to the other guy, that proves he’s not pandering to you. Forgive me if I don’t find the “oh, he’s just lying to get votes” argument a compelling reason to feel better about it. The other position was not stated in the context of a campaign, IIRC. Sorry, don’t have a cite. But I can tell you that the Obama campaign has been **very** involved with the LGBT community in particular and it’s not a group he wants to piss off. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And- it’s nice you prefer to use a particular set of PC terminology. Don’t correct others, however. Please. No. The term “gay marriage” is both inaccurate and misleading. It’s nothing to do with political correctness; **I** am bisexual and see no need to be locked out of both “gay marriage” and “straight marriage”. When you use those terms, you are codifying the massive ostracism from all sides that **I** am personally a victim of and I don’t understand why you want to blame me for that. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but that doesn’t matter why or to who. It still happened and it was a stupid idea. You mean “to whom”, and the entire point of fighting for our rights is so that we can live our lives without constantly looking over our shoulders and wondering if we’re going to do something politically damaging to the cause. That’s what true equality is. Your cynical blame game is not helping. I mean, really–the Yes on 8 campaign just poured out months of lies and hate to swindle the voters into institutionalizing discrimination, and you’re blaming _us_ for being a little happy about finally winning our rights for a couple of months? Those of us who are directly affected by this do not need to be spat upon from both sides, so please take your insults and blame elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Daffyd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daffyd/32/8923_2.png) [@Daffyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daffyd)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/175 "2008-11-06T00:57:11Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Your cynical blame game is not helping. I mean, really–the Yes on 8 campaign just poured out months of lies and hate to swindle the voters into institutionalizing discrimination, and you’re blaming _us_ for being a little happy about finally winning our rights for a couple of months? Those of us who are directly affected by this do not need to be spat upon from both sides, so please take your insults and blame elsewhere. Exactly… and telling people that Gavin Newsom was “stupid” for saying Same Sex Marriage is inevitable is just as insulting. The man is **right** - whether the haters like it or not, it’s coming… Newsom didn’t lose this for us - the money from the mormon church and the knights of columbus did… ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/176 "2008-11-06T01:11:43Z")
> [@Daffyd](#): > > Exactly… and telling people that Gavin Newsom was “stupid” for saying Same Sex Marriage is inevitable is just as insulting. The man is **right** - whether the haters like it or not, it’s coming… > > Newsom didn’t lose this for us - the money from the mormon church and the knights of columbus did… Amen. My neighborhood’s flag [flies at half-mast today](http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamison/3005985912/), but it won’t next time. To hell with anyone who tells my neighbors and loved ones to roll over and “behave” and maybe we’ll let you love each other someday. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/177 "2008-11-06T05:30:15Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Last time I checked there isn’t a shortage of people who want children (but only when they are small and cute), so it seems unlikely that there are going to be many children left in orphanages over this. There are _already_ far more kids in orphanages around the world than there are parents willing to adopt them. Even here in the U.S. there are kids who spend their entire childhoods in foster care because no one will adopt them. You’re right that part of the reason is that many parents are only seeking to adopt young children. Another part is that many parents are only seeking to adopt children of a particular race (most often, white). But studies have shown that gay and lesbian parents are generally _more likely_ to be willing to adopt children considered “undesirable” by the average adoptive parent. There is also a drastic shortage of foster parents. Kids get split up from their siblings because it’s impossible to place them together. Kids get bounced from one foster family to another, having to repeatedly adjust to a new home, new school, etc. Kids get placed in kinship care with relatives who don’t particularly want them and aren’t well-equipped to care for them. And kids get left for far too long in foster homes where abuse is suspected, because there just isn’t anywhere else to put them. The new law in Arkansas bans unmarried couples (including all same-sex couples) from both from adopting and from serving as foster parents, when there aren’t enough people willing to do either. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/178 "2008-11-06T05:36:10Z")
Prop 8, according to what I’m hearing, is still not officially called, due to uncounted ballots that could tip it. Candlelight vigil happening in Sac around the capital building RIGHT NOW. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/179 "2008-11-06T07:03:37Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Prop 8, according to what I’m hearing, is still not officially called, due to uncounted ballots that could tip it. It isn’t, and there are millions of ballots yet to be counted, yet the Governator has already ordered all county clerks to stop issuing marriages to same-sex couples. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073/180 "2008-11-06T08:37:16Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > It isn’t, and there are millions of ballots yet to be counted, yet the Governator has already ordered all county clerks to stop issuing marriages to same-sex couples. Do you have a link for that? I tried searching Google News for it and didn’t come up with me. There were several stories about county clerks deciding to stop issuing licenses, believing they are complying with the law, but nothing about Arnold ordering them to stop issuing licenses. I think it is over, though. I see no evidence that suggests that the uncounted votes would be overwhelmingly against Prop 8. I’m not willing to hold out hope just to be disappointed later. What is still up in the air is whether the marriages that have been performed will be found invalid, and whether this court challenge to Prop 8 will succeed. It’s hard to predict what the CA Supreme Court will do in either case. These articles seem to suggest that the court challenge will fail and the marriages will be found invalid: > **[The Volokh Conspiracy -](https://volokh.com/posts/chain_1225907782.shtml)** And the reasoning seems correct I think. But, then, it’s hard to predict what the CA Supreme Court will do. Two of my friends went and eloped today. God, I hope they don’t lose their marriage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-az-fl-gay-marriage-balloting-reaction-thread/471073.md?page=10)