# CA city bills POTUS for police overtime due to fundraising event - Should Obama pay this bill? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 27, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280 "2012-05-27T21:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/21 "2012-05-29T12:28:26Z")
It’s the governments job to keep their domain safe for all citizens. The president has the same rights as everyone else. Charging for something they are already responsible for is to limit free speech to only those that can afford it. On the flip side is the White House going to get a cut of the profits his presence brought to the area? All those people that showed up to this event probably spent money elsewhere too. Shouldn’t the White House be getting it’s share of the tax revenue? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/22 "2012-05-29T13:23:39Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > It’s the governments job to keep their domain safe for all citizens. The president has the same rights as everyone else. Charging for something they are already responsible for is to limit free speech to only those that can afford it. > > On the flip side is the White House going to get a cut of the profits his presence brought to the area? All those people that showed up to this event probably spent money elsewhere too. Shouldn’t the White House be getting it’s share of the tax revenue? Generally speaking police aren’t responsible for providing ancillary security services to large private events. The default is that police do not provide special security services to large parties or private gatherings, and they charge no special fee to people holding those gatherings. So no one’s rights are infringed, and the individuals throwing the party receive the same passive level of protection that all citizens of that jurisdiction receive from police. So to me, the question is thus: Is the only reason the city provided police services for this event because it was a Presidential event? If that is the case, then it’s not unreasonable to conclude the city has some interest in not subsidizing an incumbent President’s re-election campaign. The issue of “only the wealthy being able to afford free speech” is irrelevant, most privately organized events do not receive special police protection, certainly most fundraisers do not. A big concert or sporting event might receive some police traffic help, but that’s a decision a municipality made for the benefit of all its citizens including those who are not attending the event, in order to streamline traffic. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/23 "2012-05-29T13:47:05Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > The daily cost? Those officers would have been on normal duty. So no to that. They are padding the bill. > This is complete bullshit and that city should be ashamed of themselves. Agreed. I can’t figure out that total either. 35k is going to be the bulk of one of the lower paid policeman’s _yearly_ salary. Even if you dinged them for a tank of gas in each cruiser, billed for a box of ammo, the daily rate on the insurances and everything I can’t see how you’d get anywhere near 35 k. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/24 "2012-05-29T13:53:59Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > What bugs me is; There sure are a lot of ‘firsts’ for this President. You know what bugs me? The idea that even after you’re shown this is untrue, you’ll still retain the idea. There’s another thread that waxes rhapsodical about the biological differences between liberals and conservatives; the liberal brain, says the OP in this thread, is open to being convinced by facts,. more so than the conservative brain. [Uh huh.](http://www.wave3.com/story/1487668/bush-visit-put-lexington-police-in-overtime-shortfall?clienttype=printable) > [@](#): > > (LEXINGTON, Ky., Saturday, October 18, 2003) – More than $15,000 is needed to pay overtime for Lexington police officers who helped protect President Bush during a fund-raising visit earlier this month. > > Mayor Teresa Isaac won’t send the $15,956 bill to the Kentucky Republican Party or its nominee for governor, Ernie Fletcher, who shared the $1.3 million raised during Bush’s appearance at Lexington Center. **Other cities, including Portland, Ore., have billed the GOP for the cost of Bush’s fund-raising visits.** And both quotes following are from the Portland Tribune: > [@](#): > > The John Kerry for President committee should expect a bill for police overtime from the city of Portland. > > And the city of Portland should expect the campaign to pay it. > > The campaign will get the invoice for Kerry’s Tuesday visit because the Massachusetts Democrat did not appear at any events open to the public. His Tuesday events involved a fund-raising reception and a closed forum on energy policy. I hope I’m wrong. I hope you’ll read this and acknowledge that, in fact, this kind of discussion is not “first” applied to President Obama. > [@](#): > > After years of practice battling protesters, Oregon Republicans think they’ve finally figured out how to get their VIPs in and out of Portland with a minimum of fuss. > > This week’s fund-raising visit from Vice President Dick Cheney involved tactics in dealing with protesters that the party has refined in the last two years. > . > . > . > The cost in police overtime won’t be known for several weeks but Portland Mayor Vera Katz plans on again sending the police overtime bill to the Bush-Cheney ’04 committee, said her spokesman, Scott Ferris. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/25 "2012-05-29T13:59:03Z")
Allright I looked at the breakdown a bit. 245 hrs? at normal rate for officers? :dubious: Assuming a full 8 hrs of work, that is something around 30 officers, not counting the sergeants, and other higher ups present. It was at a private home. you could surround even a large home two rows deep with that many policemen. Methinks the city is billing out for every on duty officer. Then there is the overtime and admin costs…:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/26 "2012-05-29T15:45:10Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Allright I looked at the breakdown a bit. 245 hrs? at normal rate for officers? :dubious: > > Assuming a full 8 hrs of work, that is something around 30 officers, not counting the sergeants, and other higher ups present. It was at a private home. you could surround even a large home two rows deep with that many policemen. Methinks the city is billing out for every on duty officer. Then there is the overtime and admin costs…:rolleyes: Is your idea of proper security for an event in a private home to simply surround the home? You can’t think of any other tasks? How many intersections are on the route for the motorcade to arrive? For the motorcade’s route, you’ll want to traverse it ahead of time and ensure there are no IED’s along the way – the local cops don’t do that, of course, but they are responsible for making sure no one plants anything after the Secret Service has validated it. And of course there’s not just one motorcade route – that would be foolish. So the same process has to be done for at least one, if not more, alternate emergency routes. Right? Then there are the motor officers who must be ready to be in place when the motorcade arrives and when it departs. Did your analysis include those? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/27 "2012-05-29T15:58:36Z")
Sports teams do have to reimburse the police for police overtime for security and traffic control, and so should political campaigns. While obviously the campaigns shouldn’t have to pay for any padded police invoices, just like anyone else shouldn’t pay any padded invoice, assuming the police overtime cost is fair and justified, then of course the campaign should pay it. This applies to both Democrat and Republican candidates. It is a cost of doing business, just like postage and paying the electrical bill. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/28 "2012-05-29T16:17:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is your idea of proper security for an event in a private home to simply surround the home? You can’t think of any other tasks? The problem is that the OP, by way of the article, is claiming: 245 hours 7 officers $35,000 cost That works out to 35 hours of work per officer at a rate of $141 per hour. Now, if the numbers are different than my calculations are different but does that seem correct to you? Do you think any officer worked a day and a half straight? Do you think it costs the city, even with overtime and benefits, $141 per hour? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/29 "2012-05-29T16:35:52Z")
I cry for America. Is this the very first time in the history of Planet Earth that an incumbent President made a campaign appearance? I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that the answer is No. Has the question come up before? What’s the normal procedure? Would it be reasonable for Newport Beach to do what every other city does? Even though this may be the first time the Islamo-Marxist Afro-American President who isn’t even American made a campaign appearance? > [@elfkin477](#): > > Of course he should, the state wouldn’t have had the expense otherwise and he was there for a self-serving purpose not for an event related to his duties as president. Would a larger font help? _Has the question come up before? What’s the normal procedure?_ > [@drewtwo99](#): > > I too feel like he should pay since it was not presidential business that incurred the expenses. Shouldn’t even Islamo-Marxist Afro-American Presidents who aren’t even American be treated equally under the laws? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > … it’s not unreasonable to conclude the city has some interest in not subsidizing an incumbent President’s re-election campaign. **Has the question come up before? What’s the normal procedure?** I cry for America. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/30 "2012-05-29T16:40:56Z")
For someone being so obnoxious **septimus** it might help if you would have actually read the post by Bricker in this thread showing the precedent and procedure that was followed when Bush was President. I guess maybe it wasn’t bolded or in large enough font for you to notice? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/31 "2012-05-29T17:05:29Z")
I remember this coming up during one or both of the Bush campaigns, and as **Bricker** points out, it’s not unheard of for a city to charge the campaign for security. I imagine the specifics depend on the individual policies of the city/county/township/municipality/state/whatever, and the actual amounts billed, and how they match up with the actual services provided, is a boring topic best left to the accountants employed by both parties and the courts, if there’s a disagreement. The fact that this “story” has become national news is entirely political, just like it did with the Bush campaigns. I’m also willing to cut the city manager the benefit of the doubt and assume that the city has never had to deal with security for a presidential campaign before. If that’s the case, then the city manager would basically be setting precedent here, so him saying that he “made the decision” (to quote the article) is fitting. If they host presidential campaign stops all the time, though, then this reeks of grandstanding. The correct response in that case wouldn’t be “I’m the one who made the decision,” but rather, “This is what we always do.” eta: Forgot to ask my question: Who leaked this to the press? The city, or the Obama campaign? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/32 "2012-05-29T17:53:05Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > The problem is that the OP, by way of the article, is claiming: > 245 hours > 7 officers > $35,000 cost > > That works out to 35 hours of work per officer at a rate of $141 per hour. > > Now, if the numbers are different than my calculations are different but does that seem correct to you? Do you think any officer worked a day and a half straight? Do you think it costs the city, even with overtime and benefits, $141 per hour? I don’t know, but it’s not a crazy figure. Union contracts often mandate time and a half for overtime, plus double time for holiday pay. When my church had to hire officers as security for an event, that combination placed us into two and a half times the officer’s base pay. To the raw rate, we then need to add fringe, overhead, and G&A costs. If I were paying this invoice, I’d want those loaded costs broken out. But they don’t strike me as impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/33 "2012-05-29T18:06:54Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > The problem is that the OP, by way of the article, is claiming: > 245 hours > 7 officers > $35,000 cost > > That works out to 35 hours of work per officer at a rate of $141 per hour. > > Now, if the numbers are different than my calculations are different but does that seem correct to you? Do you think any officer worked a day and a half straight? Do you think it costs the city, even with overtime and benefits, $141 per hour? On further review, this is not true. A freeze-frame of the video reveals the breakout: ```auto Quantity Unit Price Exetnsion Police Lieutenant 76 65.08 4946.08 Police Lieutenant-OT 22 97.62 2147.64 Police Sergeant 142 55.37 7862.54 Police Sergeant-OT 45 83.05 3737.25 Police Officer 245 49.01 12007.45 Police Officer-OT 19 74.72 1419.68 Reserve Officer 19.5 20 390 Senior Dispatch Officer 8.5 30.9 262.65 Com Services Officer 52 29.31 1524.12 Com Services Officer-OT 7 43.97 307.79 total 34297.41 ``` Those are hours and labor categories, not numbers of officers. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/34 "2012-05-29T18:14:00Z")
> [@umkay](#): > > Hahahaha! > > Sorry, this is my home region, and you’d be hard-pressed to find a more faithful bulwark of the Republican party anywhere in California. Or a more affluent area. So it strikes me as being just a _smidge_ political, if-you-know-what-I-mean… CA is a Blue State. You will have areas of Republicans, but it is very Blue. I think this issue has nothing to do with who the POTUS is, and everything to do with the financial woes of the State ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/35 "2012-05-29T18:31:04Z")
Sorry to Bricker for not reading his post. (He rants against my threads without reading OP, but I don’t need to reciprocate.) > [@dngnb8](#): > > CA is a Blue State. You will have areas of Republicans, but it is very Blue. 😕 :smack: Did you know California is a large state? 😃 Wikipedia comments > [@](#): > > As of January 2010, there were 34,747 registered Republicans, 13,684 Democrats 11,719 unaffiliated and 2,432 minor party voters, making Newport Beach one of the most heavily Republican cities in California (Republicans outnumber Democrats nearly 3 to 1). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/36 "2012-05-29T18:33:09Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Sorry to Bricker for not reading his post. (He rants against my threads without reading OP, but I don’t need to reciprocate.) Threads? No, not true. A thread, once? Yes, true. For which I have repeatedly apologized, and will do so again here. I’m very sorry. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/37 "2012-05-29T18:53:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 :smack: Did you know California is a large state? 😃 > Wikipedia comments And the entire central valley is red, too. So, the whole middle of the state, plus a good chunk of Orange County. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/38 "2012-05-29T19:13:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You know what bugs me? > I hope I’m wrong. I hope you’ll read this and acknowledge that, in fact, this kind of discussion is not “first” applied to President Obama. Thank you for pointing out that it isn’t new, but, we’re any of these paid? So of those article talk about billing or thinking of billing but were they actually paid? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/39 "2012-05-30T07:34:07Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > It’s the governments job to keep their domain safe for all citizens. The president has the same rights as everyone else. Charging for something they are already responsible for is to limit free speech to only those that can afford it. > > On the flip side is the White House going to get a cut of the profits his presence brought to the area? All those people that showed up to this event probably spent money elsewhere too. Shouldn’t the White House be getting it’s share of the tax revenue? Its the job of the Secret Service to protect the President; its not the job of the NBPD. Also, this event was held on private property and the Obama campaign could easily have afforded to hire its own security. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280/40 "2012-05-31T04:35:19Z")
The Secret Service always works with local law enforcement. The coordinate well in advance for these things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-city-bills-potus-for-police-overtime-due-to-fundraising-event-should-obama-pay-this-bill/623280.md?page=3)