# CA executes old blind cripple **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 17, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357 "2006-01-17T14:36:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/21 "2006-01-17T15:46:09Z")
The death penalty is immoral in and of itself, regardless of the physical health of the condemned. True, it took 24 years. But in those 24 years, had evidence arose that would overturn the conviction, the harm to him could be stopped with the turn of a key. Had he been executed those 24 years ago and we find out just after doing it that he was innocent, there isn’t a whole lot you can do for him. Until judges, juries, prosecutors, and defense attorneys become 100% infallible, the death penalty will include the possibility of executing the innocent. Regarding his ordering killings while in prison- there’s a simple answer. Solitary confinement. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/22 "2006-01-17T16:13:32Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Was society safe from him because he was in prison? Let’s not forget that he wasn’t being executed because he murdered a seventeen year old girl - he was being executed because \*\*he ordered three witnesses \*\* in that case killed while he was in prison. Those three people were certainly not safe just because Allen was in jail. D’oh! That should be “ordered the murder of three witnesses…” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/23 "2006-01-17T16:14:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Regarding his ordering killings while in prison- there’s a simple answer. Solitary confinement. Are you proposing to keep every killer in solitary confinement for 24 hours a day? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/24 "2006-01-17T16:23:26Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Are you proposing to keep every killer in solitary confinement for 24 hours a day? > > Zev Steinhardt No, but when they learned of his ordering executions while in prison, that would be the time to eliminate all contact with others. It’s conjecture on my part, but I bet that most convicted murderers don’t have the means or power to order hits on the outside. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/25 "2006-01-17T16:51:34Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > What I’m saying is this: He was locked up for 23 years. He was not a threat to society. If he has been neutralised as a threat, then what’s the point of killing him? What purpose does it serve? That it took so long to kill him only points to the effectiveness of incarceration instead of execution. Well, how much taxpayer’s money is being pissed away keeping this guy alive in a maximum security prison? Incarceration may be effective, but it’s not cost-effective. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/26 "2006-01-17T16:51:46Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > What I’m saying is this: He was locked up for 23 years. He was not a threat to society. If he has been neutralised as a threat, then what’s the point of killing him? What purpose does it serve? That it took so long to kill him only points to the effectiveness of incarceration instead of execution. I wonder if the 3 people he had killed _while he was in prison_ would agree with you that he had been “neutralized as a threat”. Why don’t we ask them? :wally ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/27 "2006-01-17T16:57:49Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Well, how much taxpayer’s money is being pissed away keeping this guy alive in a maximum security prison? Incarceration may be effective, but it’s not cost-effective. In fact, it is more expensive to execute a criminal than it is to imprison them. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/28 "2006-01-17T17:19:21Z")
Worth bearing in mind that the US governments’ decisions to continue to kill people in prison is a major concern in the civilized world- Europe, Australasia, Canada etc… Those of us who keep to civilized standards can only look on and weep as you continue to kill juvenile offenders, the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, elderly cripples and proportionately more people of color than anglos, in your charnel houses. There are an adequate number of models in those civilized nations to show that the killing criminals is not necessary. One day people will look back on this type of killing and see it as we now see child labor, slavery, female exclusion, state racism, and corporal punishment. The USA will, to history, look like the ante-bellum USA, Victorian Britain, and Apartheid South Africa look to us today. Shame. Shame. Shame. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/29 "2006-01-17T17:22:42Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Worth bearing in mind that the US governments’ decisions to continue to kill people in prison is a major concern in the civilized world- Europe, Australasia, Canada etc… > > Those of us who keep to civilized standards can only look on and weep as you continue to kill juvenile offenders, the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, elderly cripples and proportionately more people of color than anglos, in your charnel houses. > > There are an adequate number of models in those civilized nations to show that the killing criminals is not necessary. > > One day people will look back on this type of killing and see it as we now see child labor, slavery, female exclusion, state racism, and corporal punishment. > > The USA will, to history, look like the ante-bellum USA, Victorian Britain, and Apartheid South Africa look to us today. > > Shame. Shame. Shame. _yawn_ ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/30 "2006-01-17T17:24:48Z")
I think what is wrong is that a guy, who had someone killed because they knew about a grocery store robbery, was able to set up more killings while in prison. I think someone who ‘arranged’ a killing, should have his visitors monitored very closely. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/31 "2006-01-17T17:28:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Worth bearing in mind that the US governments’ decisions to continue to kill people in prison is a major concern in the civilized world- Europe, Australasia, Canada etc… > > Those of us who keep to civilized standards can only look on and weep as you continue to kill juvenile offenders, the mentally ill, the mentally retarded, elderly cripples and proportionately more people of color than anglos, in your charnel houses. > > There are an adequate number of models in those civilized nations to show that the killing criminals is not necessary. > > One day people will look back on this type of killing and see it as we now see child labor, slavery, female exclusion, state racism, and corporal punishment. > > The USA will, to history, look like the ante-bellum USA, Victorian Britain, and Apartheid South Africa look to us today. > > Shame. Shame. Shame. That holier than thou crap does not help the anti-death penalty cause. North America has been occupied by Europeans far less of a time span than Europe has. Being European, we learned our murderous ways from our fore-fathers. Give us time and we’ll reach your level of civility. Although it looked a lot like apathy when it came to the genocide in the Balkans. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/32 "2006-01-17T17:30:26Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > I disagree. The proper strategy is to focus on people’s skepticism regarding the accuracy of the legal system. Hammer away on the idea that if you’re going to give someone a permanent, unfixable punishment like death that the system needs to be 100% accurate. I think that most people can get behind that, even if they feel that there are some crimes worthy of the death penalty. I think yours is the best course. I think it’s perfectly moral to kill other human beings for certain reasons. I used to be a staunch supporter of the death penalty but with nagging worries over the execution of innocent people, the arbitrary way it the death sentence seems to be doled out, etc. I have become only a mild supporter of the death penalty. I still don’t think it’s wrong, but I’m not going to fight all that strongly if it is repealed. Marc ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/33 "2006-01-17T17:32:20Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, but when they learned of his ordering executions while in prison, that would be the time to eliminate all contact with others. It wasn’t learned until after the people were already dead. It’s not like these things get announced in the prison weekly. I’m anti-death penalty, but as long as we have it, you can’t say it doesn’t apply to some people. Fry the fucker. He deserved the most severe sentence available. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/34 "2006-01-17T17:34:55Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > That holier than thou crap does not help the anti-death penalty cause. North America has been occupied by Europeans far less of a time span than Europe has. Being European, we learned our murderous ways from our fore-fathers. Give us time and we’ll reach your level of civility. Although it looked a lot like apathy when it came to the genocide in the Balkans. All of the countries of the civilized world share a common moral structure which stands aside from the age of the state. The length of time that the US has been ‘occupied by Europeans’ is less or more (depending on your view of Vinnland etc.) than Canada. Yet Canada seems to be doing quite well without killing its prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/35 "2006-01-17T17:41:38Z")
Countries in which the killing prisoners is still permitted ``` ***Afghanistan** * Antigua and Barbuda * Bahamas * Bahrain * Bangladesh * Barbados * **Belarus** * Belize * Botswana * Burundi * Cameroon * Chad ***China (People's Republic)** * Comoros * Congo (Democratic Republic) * Cuba * Dominica * Egypt * Equatorial Guinea * Eritrea * Ethiopia * Gabon * Ghana * Guatemala * Guinea * Guyana * India * Indonesia * **Iran** * **Iraq** * Jamaica * Japan * Jordan * Kazakhstan ***Korea, North** * Korea, South * Kuwait * **Kyrgyzstan** * Laos * Lebanon * Lesotho * Liberia ***Libya** * Malawi * Malaysia * Mongolia * Nigeria * Oman * Pakistan * Palestinian Authority * Philippines * Qatar * Rwanda * St. Kitts and Nevis * St. Lucia * St. Vincent and the Grenadines * **Saudi Arabia** * Sierra Leone * Singapore * Somalia * Sudan * Swaziland * **Syria** * Taiwan * Tajikistan * Tanzania * Thailand * Trinidad and Tobago * Uganda * United Arab Emirates * **United States** * **Uzbekistan** * Vietnam * Yemen * Zambia * **Zimbabwe** ``` What company you choose to keep. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/36 "2006-01-17T17:52:42Z")
**Pjen** , just because the Europeans choose option A and the U.S. chooses option B does not make option A right and option B wrong by necessity. Something isn’t right because the majority of “civilised” countries say it is. I’m against the death penalty for a few reasons. One of them is most definitly not, because it’s what the Europeans think. As my Mom said, “If all the other kids jumped off a bridge, would you jump off it too?” I’m afraid that your posts read more like someone who’s interested in mindless knee-jerk America bashing rather than someone who’s interested in debate. I mean “charnel houses?” seriously? And as **Blackclaw** points out, Europe’s miserable failure in the Balkans takes the authority out of your finger-wagging. ---
**Author:** ![Faruiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Faruiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faruiza)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/37 "2006-01-17T17:53:41Z")
I find it the very height of irony that Allen needed an extra dose of the drug used to stop his heart, and that it took longer to get the job done. I know. find a cite. [Here. Not so feeble after all.](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/17/MNG37GOHD715.DTL) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/38 "2006-01-17T17:53:58Z")
Top of the Pops for the Killing of Prisoners 2005 : Saudi Arabia 90 Iran 88 China 77+ USA 60 Pakistan 23 Libya 15 Kuwait 11 Total 364 Remaining 13 States- no more than 10 each totalling about 63+. The US is responsible for about 1 in 7 of all judicial killings. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/39 "2006-01-17T17:55:30Z")
And what have you got against Thailand, Singapore, Japan, Barbados or the Bahamas anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/40 "2006-01-17T17:59:28Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > **Pjen** , just because the Europeans choose option A and the U.S. chooses option B does not make option A right and option B wrong by necessity. Something isn’t right because the majority of “civilised” countries say it is. It’s not just Europe, it is the entire ‘Western’ world excepting the USA and Japan. > [@Larry Borgia](#): > > I’m against the death penalty for a few reasons. One of them is most definitly not, because it’s what the Europeans think. As my Mom said, “If all the other kids jumped off a bridge, would you jump off it too?” However, while we’re quoting adages and saws, look at my comments about the company you keep- something I am sure that your mother warned you about. > [@Larry Borgia](#): > > I’m afraid that your posts read more like someone who’s interested in mindless knee-jerk America bashing rather than someone who’s interested in debate. I mean “charnel houses?” seriously? And as **Blackclaw** points out, Europe’s miserable failure in the Balkans takes the authority out of your finger-wagging. I’ll trade you a miserable failure in the Balkans against the US treatment of its African American Population prior to 1950. People who live in glass houses… . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357.md?page=3)