# CA executes old blind cripple **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 17, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357 "2006-01-17T14:36:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/61 "2006-01-17T19:07:23Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > However shameful his deeds, no other Western Civilized state would have done to him what you have chosen to do. > > The killing of a prisoner in cold blood is, IMHO, more shameful than all of his crimes. Letting him arrange/order the killing of more innocent witnesses and bystanders is even more wrong. The State has a duty to protect the innocent. In this case, there was no legal way to stop Allen from killing other than to kill him. I will admit we should have done that more than a decade ago. You can still order killings even from a Super-Max. You have to have some contact with others, and I have even heard of prisoners ordering the killing through their attorney. You see- here in the USA- “Cruel & Unusual Punishment” is Un-Constitutional. That includes ultra-harsh imprisonment. I’d rather have a few executions than no 4th Admend. I don’t like the death penalty. But in CA here, in these last two controversial cases- it seems like the only choice. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/62 "2006-01-17T19:07:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > However shameful his deeds, no other Western Civilized state would have done to him what you have chosen to do. > > The killing of a prisoner in cold blood is, IMHO, more shameful than all of his crimes. He was not killed “in cold blood.” He was killed to rid the world of a heinous murderer. His FOUR (almost five) VICTIMS were the ones killed in cold blood. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/63 "2006-01-17T19:08:34Z")
And btw have you ever heard of Millwall Football (Soccer) Club. Their motto is: They all hate us and we don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/64 "2006-01-17T19:12:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > However shameful his deeds, no other Western Civilized state would have done to him what you have chosen to do. IMO more pity for them. I have nothing but contempt for a country that would refuse to execute someone proven guilty of the crimes this man committed because it wasn’t “nice” or “civilized”. Fuck him. What he did wasn’t civilized either. If Europe doesn’t have the stones to pony up and properly punish such criminals, that’s your lack, not ours. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/65 "2006-01-17T19:12:48Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > He was not killed “in cold blood.” He was killed to rid the world of a heinous murderer. > > His FOUR (almost five) VICTIMS were the ones killed in cold blood. ‘Cold Blooded’ killing does not come any more so than that of the State in killing a prisoner by the rule book. That is truly cold blooded. From [Thesaurus.com](http://Thesaurus.com): “barbarous, brutal, callous, cold, dispassionate, hard-boiled, hard-hearted, hardened, heartless, imperturbable, inhuman, matter-of-fact, merciless, obdurate, pitiless, relentless, ruthless, savage, steely, stony-hearted, uncompassionate, unemotional, unfeeling, unmoved” ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/66 "2006-01-17T19:14:04Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > IMO more pity for them. I have nothing but contempt for a country that would refuse to execute someone proven guilty of the crimes this man committed because it wasn’t “nice” or “civilized”. Fuck him. What he did wasn’t civilized either. If Europe doesn’t have the stones to pony up and properly punish such criminals, that’s your lack, not ours. And it’s that attitude that excludes the USA from Western Civilized Nation status. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/67 "2006-01-17T19:14:30Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > ‘Cold Blooded’ killing does not come any more so than that of the State in killing a prisoner by the rule book. That is truly cold blooded. > > From [Thesaurus.com](http://Thesaurus.com): > > “barbarous, brutal, callous, cold, dispassionate, hard-boiled, hard-hearted, hardened, heartless, imperturbable, inhuman, matter-of-fact, merciless, obdurate, pitiless, relentless, ruthless, savage, steely, stony-hearted, uncompassionate, unemotional, unfeeling, unmoved” None of which apply to Allen’s four murders :wally ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/68 "2006-01-17T19:15:37Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > But. Allen was legally blind, deaf, had diabetes, and was confined to a wheelchair. In September he suffered a near-fatal heart attack. And he was 76 years old, the oldest person executed in California and the second-oldest prisoner executed in the U.S. after a 77-year-old was executed in Mississippi last month. > > Was this guy a threat to society? What purpose was served by executing a blind, deaf cripple? I see what you’re saying, but I disagree vehemently. Considering that the latter three murders that this man is convicted of having committed were contracted for while he was in jail, already serving time for his first murder, I don’t see where you can argue that his execution _didn’t_ make Californians materially safer. If he could arrange murders while in jail once, why does his physical condition matter in judging whether he’s a threat to society? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/69 "2006-01-17T19:16:23Z")
**Pjen,** I really don’t know any more ways of saying it than I already did. If you want to convince people here, on the message board, of your points, you must support them with reasons **other than what other countries are doing or not doing**. That may work in the real world, but it’s not going to fly here. As an exercise, come up with a reason _why_ the death penalty is wrong, without referencing what the rest of the world or what other countries do. Surely there must be _some_ way to describe what’s wrong with it, other that the fact that some countries don’t do it anymore? Surely something can be right or wrong, even if, say, there was only country in the world? These are the arguments that are worth something here. Note, there are at least three people here arguing with you, that _agree with you that the US should abolish the death penalty_. I’m sure we can find some common ground, but it’s never going to be based on the “arguments” you’ve been giving so far. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/70 "2006-01-17T19:17:01Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And it’s that attitude that excludes the USA from Western Civilized Nation status. I bet they’re bothered :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/71 "2006-01-17T19:18:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > However shameful his deeds, no other Western Civilized state would have done to him what you have chosen to do. > > The killing of a prisoner in cold blood is, IMHO, more shameful than all of his crimes. You’re turning me into a death penalty supporter again. Forget about apartheid. The problem there was the suppression of innocent people. This clown was not innocent. I’m generally against the death penalty because of the chance of the execution of the innocent. That’s not a problem here. First, when Allen ordered the second set of killings, he basically confessed. Second, given that he was doing life without parole, the elimination of the possibility of the death penalty meant that he could kill anyone without risk or penalty. What if he had escaped and killed someone? Why not if there would be no penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/72 "2006-01-17T19:20:30Z")
> [@Dominic Mulligan](#): > > I bet they’re bothered :rolleyes: Nor were pro-apartheid South Africans. Still a despicable system. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/73 "2006-01-17T19:21:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, but when they learned of his ordering executions while in prison, that would be the time to eliminate all contact with others. It’s conjecture on my part, but I bet that most convicted murderers don’t have the means or power to order hits on the outside. [You’d be amazed](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6902881&postcount=130), I think. [Another frightening article.](http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/prisongangs/a1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/74 "2006-01-17T19:21:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m generally against the death penalty because of the chance of the execution of the innocent. That’s not a problem here. First, when Allen ordered the second set of killings, he basically confessed. Second, given that he was doing life without parole, the elimination of the possibility of the death penalty meant that he could kill anyone without risk or penalty. What if he had escaped and killed someone? Why not if there would be no penalty. Every other Western state (except Japan) would not have needed to do this. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/75 "2006-01-17T19:26:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I don’t like the death penalty. But in CA here, in these last two controversial cases- it seems like the only choice. Except that it would have been neither necessary nor possible in any other Western Civilized nation (except Japan). Other choices could be made- they have been in the true Western Civilized nations. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/76 "2006-01-17T19:30:48Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nor were pro-apartheid South Africans. > > Still a despicable system. when **E-Sabbath** attacked England’s low drinking age, you seemed unconcerned…just like how Hitler would be unconcerned!!! clearly, having a low drinking age is akin to being Hitler ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/77 "2006-01-17T19:33:29Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > What I’m saying is this: He was locked up for 23 years. He was not a threat to society. If he has been neutralised as a threat, then what’s the point of killing him? What purpose does it serve? That it took so long to kill him only points to the effectiveness of incarceration instead of execution. No, it doesn’t do any such thing. It points to the weaknesses of the system that allow it to be exploited by a scumbag who should have gotten the needle 20 years ago. I have long held that I would like to see a Constitutional Amendment that expands the Supreme Court to 12 judges. At the beginning of the term, they draw lots and three of them constitute a Death Penalty tribunal and those are the only cases they hear. The others carry on the regular business of the court. A capital conviction at the district court level would automatically be appealed to the highest criminal appeals court in the state. If it is upheld, it is automatically appealed to the Tribunal. If it is upheld there, that’s it. Sentence is carried out immediately. At the beginning of the next term, the three judges who were on the tribunal this term are NOT included in the drawing, so that you do not a judge sitting on the tribunal for two years in a row. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/78 "2006-01-17T19:39:25Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > …those other people and nations felt that the USA is making a fundamental error- a State killing its prisoners is just wrong in a civilized Western World. It should have penetrated even your limited attention span by this time, but I will repeat: “the USA” did not condemn this killer - a jury of ordinary people did. “the USA” did not execute him - the state of California did, in accordance with the decision of the jury and after an exhaustive appeals process. Too bad that the facts have to get in the way of a **Pjen** “USA-Uncivilized-Loss-Of-Moral-High-Ground-Everyone-In-My-Engels-Study-Group-Says-So” Rant #135770. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/79 "2006-01-17T19:39:37Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > **Pjen,** I really don’t know any more ways of saying it than I already did. > If you want to convince people here, on the message board, of your points, you must support them with reasons **other than what other countries are doing or not doing**. That may work in the real world, but it’s not going to fly here. Arguing this case is similar to arguing many other similar cases-against slavery, against apartheid, against female subjugation- all rational routes can be argued against, but the overwhelming argument in retrospect was clearly that the system was despicable acccording to current acceptable mores. We don’t argue that slavery was wrong because it demeaned slaveholders, took away civil rights, was not good for the 19thC economics. We say it is wrong to hold slaves because it is morally despicable to modern conscience. Ditto for subjugation of women and minorities. The same argument applies to killing prisoners in cold blood. They massive majority of Western States believe it is just despicable. > [@Revtim](#): > > As an exercise, come up with a reason _why_ the death penalty is wrong, without referencing what the rest of the world or what other countries do. Surely there must be _some_ way to describe what’s wrong with it, other that the fact that some countries don’t do it anymore? Surely something can be right or wrong, even if, say, there was only country in the world? > > These are the arguments that are worth something here. You must be mistaking this for **Great Debates** > [@Revtim](#): > > Note, there are at least three people here arguing with you, that _agree with you that the US should abolish the death penalty_. I’m sure we can find some common ground, but it’s never going to be based on the “arguments” you’ve been giving so far. I am not to interested here in arguing the pros and cons of deterrence, retribution, warning the others, safety of society, revenge etc. etc. My argument is: Judicial Killing is morally despicable like Slavery, Subjugation of Minorities and Tyranny. People don’t need to argue the finer points of the above to understand that they are wrong. I am arguing that killing prisoners is in the same category. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357/80 "2006-01-17T19:43:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Except that it would have been neither necessary nor possible in any other Western Civilized nation (except Japan). Other choices could be made- they have been in the true Western Civilized nations. I think you’re arguing in a tautology, here: Several nations on your list strike me as being reasonably included as being considered “Western Civilized” nations. Belarus, for example, is actually east of the Ural/Caucus Mountain range. Singapore is at least strongly associated with the Commonwealth, if not still a member. The Bahamas, and other Caribbean nations are far more Western than any other description. So, it seems that you define Western Civilized nations as those that do not have the death penalty. If that’s the case, why do you give Canada a bye, when they’ve agreed to extradite a criminal to face a slam-dunk trial? (Charles Ng, and if anyone ever deserved to be put down like a mad dog, he’s the one.) Or France, when dealing with Eric Einhorn? What is your criteria for calling something a Western Civilized nation when you seem to include Japan as one, but not Belarus? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-executes-old-blind-cripple/340357.md?page=5)