# CA red light camera issues: you have to pay even when innocent? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434 "2012-04-11T03:13:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/1 "2012-04-11T03:13:00Z")
I’ll add more details… A friend’s co-worker recently received a notice, photo, and fine having to do with one of those red light camera intersections here in California. The light was clearly green and it shows in the photo. He did not commit a violation but the camera went off anyway. He went to ask to have it dismissed but was told he would have to pay the nearly-$500 fine anyway and then go to court and try to fight it and get the money back. In the meantime, he’ll be out nearly 500 bucks. How can this be legal? Why should you have to pay a fine when the photographic evidence proves that you were in the right? ---
**Author:** ![Yorikke](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yorikke/32/4335_2.png) [@Yorikke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorikke)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/2 "2012-04-11T03:17:31Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I’ll add more details… > > A friend’s co-worker recently received a notice, photo, and fine having to do with one of those red light camera intersections here in California. The light was clearly green and it shows in the photo. He did not commit a violation but the camera went off anyway. He went to ask to have it dismissed but was told he would have to pay the nearly-$500 fine anyway and then go to court and try to fight it and get the money back. In the meantime, he’ll be out nearly 500 bucks. > > How can this be legal? Why should you have to pay a fine when the photographic evidence proves that you were in the right? I find it nigh impossible to believe that he would have to pay a fine BEFORE being found guilty. Joe ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/3 "2012-04-11T03:18:16Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I’ll add more details… > > A friend’s co-worker recently received a notice, photo, and fine having to do with one of those red light camera intersections here in California. The light was clearly green and it shows in the photo. He did not commit a violation but the camera went off anyway. He went to ask to have it dismissed but was told he would have to pay the nearly-$500 fine anyway and then go to court and try to fight it and get the money back. In the meantime, he’ll be out nearly 500 bucks. > > How can this be legal? Why should you have to pay a fine when the photographic evidence proves that you were in the right? I would expect the normal process to prevail. You plead not guilty and get a court date. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/4 "2012-04-11T03:25:49Z")
I got a photo notice some years ago in California, which showed I was turning on a yellow light, with a speeder behind me, and a slow poke in front of me. And I had to go to court, and explain why I thought I did not commit a violation. It was decided that I was not guilty, and that I only had to pay a small administrative fee. No fine was imposed before the court date. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/5 "2012-04-11T03:28:07Z")
He was told that he had to go through the process AND pay the fine. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/6 "2012-04-11T03:31:40Z")
He was misinformed. The ticket includes a “Notice to Appear” date, at which time you can defend yourself against the charge. Paying the fine would waive this right and essentially be an admission of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/7 "2012-04-11T03:36:01Z")
Thank you for the info. It didn’t make any sense when the story was told to me. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/8 "2012-04-11T04:18:28Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Thank you for the info. > > It didn’t make any sense when the story was told to me. I would also question the amount. $500 for running a light is pretty steep from a system designed to siphon off money a little at a time. Seems like it’s off by one zero. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/9 "2012-04-11T05:35:10Z")
That’s how it worked in my town in Ohio (until the voters threw the cameras and mayor out). Technically, the ticket was just a notice from the city that they were considering filing a civil suit against you for $125. You could settle for $100, or you could come talk to the city’s “hearing officer,” but to do that you had to pay in advance, and you would be issued a refund if the hearing officer found in your favor. The city tried very, very hard to make it seem like you were getting a real ticket, though, and that the hearing officer (who was an at-will employee of the police chief) was some kind of jurist. There was no “guilty” or “not guilty,” because _there was no case_, just a threat of a lawsuit sometime in the future. Maybe it works the same way in California (or at least that jurisdiction). ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/10 "2012-04-11T07:07:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would also question the amount. $500 for running a light is pretty steep from a system designed to siphon off money a little at a time. Seems like it’s off by one zero. Have you ever been to California? I’ve usually seen it “advertised” for $300-400 or so, I can’t imagine that $500 is out of the realm of possibility. Never heard of a situation in the OP. Options are usually 1) pay by mail (or in court) 2) fight it in court 3) fight by mail (not available for all offenses, not sure about this one). ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/11 "2012-04-11T16:45:48Z")
I believe they’ve done away with the whole red light camera fine business in L.A., the city, but this is in another part of the county. And it is $480.00. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/12 "2012-04-11T16:58:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would also question the amount. $500 for running a light is pretty steep from a system designed to siphon off money a little at a time. Seems like it’s off by one zero. A red light runner nearly killed my wife, so I’d be in favor of the death penalty or at least some water boarding. But $500 is about right. The fine is expensive, and there are lots of added court costs. You can thank Prop 13. As for the OP, people review the photos and a video of each infraction before a ticket is sent. Did he look at the video? When a friend got a ticket for turning right on red without stopping, the evidence was clear. I’m guessing he may be a bit more guilty than he is letting on. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/13 "2012-04-11T17:32:19Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Have you ever been to California? I’ve usually seen it “advertised” for $300-400 or so, I can’t imagine that $500 is out of the realm of possibility. On top of that, the “court costs” tacked on are ridiculous here. My $20 cell phone ticket back in the day ran me $228 with “court costs.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/14 "2012-04-11T17:37:21Z")
Yes, California requires that you deposit the fine amount if you want to have your day in court. Supposedly they will refund you the amount if you prevail. I have had two clients in the past two years who needed to fight their tickets (with lawyer!) for business and personal reasons. Both times they required the fine be paid before we could be heard in court. Both times we prevailed in court. (Count me gobsmacked!) Both times they tried not to refund the money. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/15 "2012-04-11T18:47:36Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I’ll add more details… > > A friend’s co-worker recently received a notice, photo, and fine having to do with one of those red light camera intersections here in California. The light was clearly green and it shows in the photo. Did he tell you about the photo, or did you _see_ the photo? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/16 "2012-04-11T19:26:44Z")
I hate California. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/17 "2012-04-11T19:31:30Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Have you ever been to California? I’ve usually seen it “advertised” for $300-400 or so, I can’t imagine that $500 is out of the realm of possibility. I live in CA and I find $500 believable. Not only that, plus the court costs already mentioned, some cities (such as Palo Alto) have a 100% “tax” on all violations. The OP’s friend may have another uncontestable bill in the mail. ---
**Author:** ![Bambro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@Bambro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambro)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/18 "2012-04-11T19:53:28Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/19 "2012-04-11T20:15:54Z")
In California, you aren’t asked to pay the fine in advance, you are asked to put up a bond, which in this case is $500. If you are judged not guilty, you will get every cent returned. Eventually. If you are judged guilty, they keep it. Obviously this procedure is biased toward the state, but it makes it easier if they don’t have to find you to collect. Your rights as a citizen are only the bare minimum they have to give you. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/20 "2012-04-11T20:42:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would also question the amount. $500 for running a light is pretty steep from a system designed to siphon off money a little at a time. Seems like it’s off by one zero. Oh no, no no. My wife got a red light camera ticket in the Bay Area a few years ago, and the total fine was also in the $500-$600 range. Even a parking ticket will run you about $70, but any moving violation is hundreds of dollars, minimum. California’s got to get its money somehow. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434.md?page=2)