# CA red light camera issues: you have to pay even when innocent? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434 "2012-04-11T03:13:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/21 "2012-04-11T22:13:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would also question the amount. $500 for running a light is pretty steep from a system designed to siphon off money a little at a time. Seems like it’s off by one zero. According to the most recent California Uniform Bail and Penalty Schedules, the minimum penalty for a “red light violation” is $404 ($480 if you fight it and lose), except for not stopping before turning right on a red light, which is only $158 ($234). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/22 "2012-04-11T22:17:42Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > In California, you aren’t asked to pay the fine in advance, you are asked to put up a bond, which in this case is $500. If you are judged not guilty, you will get every cent returned. > > Eventually. > > If you are judged guilty, they keep it. Obviously this procedure is biased toward the state, but it makes it easier if they don’t have to find you to collect. Your rights as a citizen are only the bare minimum they have to give you. So you will eventually get your money back in California? Do you speak from experience? I note you hail from Wisconsin. I speak from California experience. Both of my clients who were exonerated did not get their bond money back automatically. They did not want to pay me to do it (who can blame them) but I did review letters each wrote trying to get the money back. Both eventually gave up. Bond is for people who might not show up to court, not a convenience for the state to collect. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/23 "2012-04-11T22:21:53Z")
[Link to the most recent penalty schedule for California](http://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/Final-2012-JC-BAIL.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/24 "2012-04-11T22:29:40Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > So you will eventually get your money back in California? Do you speak from experience? I note you hail from Wisconsin. I speak from California experience. Both of my clients who were exonerated did not get their bond money back automatically. They did not want to pay me to do it (who can blame them) but I did review letters each wrote trying to get the money back. Both eventually gave up. > > Bond is for people who might not show up to court, not a convenience for the state to collect. I lived in So Cal for 28 years. I had at least one ticket that I put up the “fine” in advance, pled not guilty, was exonerated, and 6 weeks later, received 100% of the “fine” money in the mail. I was told the only way I could get a court date was to pony up first. That appeared to be SOP at the time. I assumed it was to guarantee payment up front; a pretty good idea from the state’s point of view, and it does discourage not guilty pleas, as the fine for pleading guilty was less. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/25 "2012-04-11T22:32:53Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I’ll add more details… > > A friend’s co-worker recently received a notice, photo, and fine having to do with one of those red light camera intersections here in California. The light was clearly green and it shows in the photo. He did not commit a violation but the camera went off anyway. He went to ask to have it dismissed but was told he would have to pay the nearly-$500 fine anyway and then go to court and try to fight it and get the money back. In the meantime, he’ll be out nearly 500 bucks. > > How can this be legal? Why should you have to pay a fine when the photographic evidence proves that you were in the right? How is there a picture of the street light and the car’s plate? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/26 "2012-04-11T22:37:11Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > How is there a picture of the street light and the car’s plate? How else would you prove car X ran light Y? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/27 "2012-04-11T22:39:24Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > How is there a picture of the street light and the car’s plate? They usually send you a couple of photos, within a fraction of a second of each other, from different angles. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/28 "2012-04-11T23:47:30Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I lived in So Cal for 28 years. I had at least one ticket that I put up the “fine” in advance, pled not guilty, was exonerated, and 6 weeks later, received 100% of the “fine” money in the mail. I was told the only way I could get a court date was to pony up first. > > That appeared to be SOP at the time. I assumed it was to guarantee payment up front; a pretty good idea from the state’s point of view, and it does discourage not guilty pleas, as the fine for pleading guilty was less. And it is still the procedure. But as a practical matter they have ceased returning the payments, 100 percent or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/29 "2012-04-11T23:56:56Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > And it is still the procedure. But as a practical matter they have ceased returning the payments, 100 percent or otherwise. Makes it easier to balance the budgets, no? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/30 "2012-04-12T01:20:02Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > So you will eventually get your money back in California? Do you speak from experience? I note you hail from Wisconsin. I speak from California experience. Both of my clients who were exonerated did not get their bond money back automatically. They did not want to pay me to do it (who can blame them) but I did review letters each wrote trying to get the money back. Both eventually gave up. > > Bond is for people who might not show up to court, not a convenience for the state to collect. That is disturbing on a number of levels. First, the ridiculous fee structure. Second, the use of machines to automate an accusation. Third, the use of a bond structure to take the money. Fourth, the inability to get the money back. I am genuinely surprised people put up with it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/31 "2012-04-12T02:16:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That is disturbing on a number of levels. First, the ridiculous fee structure. Second, the use of machines to automate an accusation. Third, the use of a bond structure to take the money. Fourth, the inability to get the money back. > > I am genuinely surprised people put up with it. Doesn’t surprise me. The American people are okay being cavity searched for an infraction accusation per their Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/32 "2012-04-12T16:56:15Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > They usually send you a couple of photos, within a fraction of a second of each other, from different angles. Around where I live they also send a link to a video of the infraction. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/33 "2012-04-12T20:25:32Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Doesn’t surprise me. The American people are okay being cavity searched for an infraction accusation per their Supreme Court. Excuse me, dear, but we don’t vote for our judges. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434/34 "2012-04-12T20:39:04Z")
I know the intersection in question–it is right next to my workplace and I use it at least twice a week. Now I’m thinking I just just cut through the parking lot since I can get to my building that way too, but without a camera on me. There is another intersection closer to home where you get your photo taken if you make a right turn on a red light during school days between 7am and 4pm. Here are the oddities: There is no other such photo stop or warning sign near any of the other area schools; this camera often goes off even when it’s not a school day or during those posted hours. Does it “know” when DST kicks in? Does it “know” when kids are on spring break or a holiday or a weekend? I am dubious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ca-red-light-camera-issues-you-have-to-pay-even-when-innocent/618434.md?page=1)