There was a book Ecotopia (by Ernest Callenbach that had the West Coast seceding via nuclear blackmail. Don’t kow if that would work these days…
I might point out that this has happened before, and a precedent was set. The trail has been blazed. I suspect Bush (or whoever) would want to be spoken of by historians in comparison with Abraham Lincoln, not in contrast.
Regarding nuclear black mail, I guess they’d have to build their own dirty bomb or buy a nuke from another country. Something tells me the feds likes to keep tabs on those sorts of things, though. I just don’t see them getting their act together to steal a US nuke. It would have to be quite a conspiracy, and be done before they drummed up public support to secede, since I suspect the US nukes would be quite secure before the California legislature voted to secede.
Of course, the Democrats would never let California go. They need the 50+ electoral votes from them every year to even have a shot at electing a president. 
Zev Steinhardt
As I have mentioned in the original thread, california would have to have some plan to be able to neutralize the threat of the US military. The 13 colonies challenged the greatest military of the world at that time and they were successful. Its a matter of political timing, having a war chest and a good number of allies.
**Neutralize Military threat. Suppose the US military is busy with Iraq, North Korea and Israel-palestine when Pakistan decides to act up, Taliban style. At this point the US military would be stretched pretty darn thin. What if at that point, California decides to secede and just so happens its national guard is at 500,000 strong and nationalizes all the warehoused equipment and munitions including tanks, ships, jets and nuclear missiles, instantly creating an army, navy and air force for california.
suppose Canada, mexico, france and china agree to support california in its declaration of independence with support ships and supplies. France will sponsor california in the UN.
Suppose California makes sure that the colorado river does not get diverted and and captures key utilities like boulder dam in nevada.
and suppose california legislators offer to Buy california from the USA in exchange for an alliance in the US wars, several hundred billion dollars paid over a hundred years, and a nuclear treaty. I dont think the 49 states would like it very much but there could be a chance they would allow it.
Well, what do you expect from a Texan? Hey just think, I’m not even drinking yet.
** How about rounding them up and putting them in jail? Resisting arrest? OK, then shoot 'em. But someone else already pointed out there are other ways to get that money…a lot of people would still go to jail, and be shot if necessary, though.**
Easier said than done. Shooting someone for not paying their taxes?
Ha, ha! I"d love to see the California Guard try to get control of US nukes. That would in fact be the death knell for California. Yeah, Bush is going to stand by and let the US gain a hostile nuclear neighbor.
What if a state had secretively created their own nuclear weapons program they kept from the Feds?
JZ
The United States would do exactly what every other empire has ever done when faced with an open rebellion in one of its provinces: suppress it in the quickest and most violent fashion possible.
Even though CA may be running a huge state deficit right now, I thought that they, like other states required by federal law still had to balance their books. Texas right now is also running about 9 billion in deficit too, but somehow they still have to get it all balanced out. Maybe I’m mistaken.
JZ
Of course. Taxes are the lifeblood of a nation - without them the country dies. As far as a government is concerned, collecting taxes is the most important duty it has; without taxes, there is no government.
The Brits have it right - unless I’m mistaken, the only people who has the right to enter a residence at will, without a warrent, are the reveneurers.
There are millions that already don’t pay their federal taxes. I haven’t seen any shot yet. Of course, if CA as a whole agreed not to do it, maybe they would start shooting.
JZ
CA is not actually running a deficit. Next year, if no cuts are made, and no taxes increased, and the normal increases are included- then yes, CA will THEN have a deficit. Which it can’t have, so the question is- how do we balance the budget?
Note, there is not really a budget crisis, anyway. The amount of estimated tax reciepts next year are slightly higher than the 1999 budget. It is just that for the last few years there has been a surplus, and they have been spending most of it.
So, all CA has to do is roll expenses back to before they started spending all the surplus (ie 1999 expenses + inflation), and they’ll be fine.
There were two tax cuts made- one on vehicle fees, and another getting rid of the highest bracket for Personal income tax. These likely need to be revoked, and these taxes re-instituted.
Sigh. All the arguments about siezing nuclear weapons are, to put it briefly, pointless. Quick rundown:
Q: Who controls and maintains the military?
A: The Federal Government.
Q: Where do military officers get trained?
A: Well, a lot of places, but West Point and Annapolis are sort of big in the officer training department.
Q: Who’s the Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces?
A: The President of the United States
Q: Which type of officer would be most likely to be given jurisdiction over nuclear weapons?
A: Not the ones that would be likely to ever rebel against the lawful government. Or allow anyone to take their weapons away from them
Note that this holds to all military forces in any state, not just the ones that control the nuclear arms. But, what the heck. Let’s assume some of these points are doable. I’ll take em one at a time.
Oh, good lord. You’re talking about waging some form of three front war with Pakistan on the side. And then a state decides to get uppity? Not a drop in the bucket. Second, California couldn’t nationalize any air or naval units since they have their own commanders loyal to the federal government. Tanks yeah. It’s harder to get a tank out than it is a submarine. As for nuclear missiles… try again. There ain’t any missiles in CA except those on board any sub that happens to be parked in a naval base. And those wouldn’t be, quote, “nationalized.” It’s sort of hard to go sub hunting without any subs of your own. Or destroyers or sub-hunting planes. They could muster a mean fishing fleet though, I’m sure.
Then we ignore Canada, Mexico, France, and China. I don’t see a problem there. More seriously, how exactly do you think they’re going to support California? There are three ways in. Through Mexico, through another state, and by sea. First, the Mexican border could easily be sealed off by Federal troops. I think we can discount shipping routes through other states. As for by sea… there is a reason the Pacific is the playground of the US Navy. Every other naval force on the planet mustered together couldn’t stand up to our navy… or slip a blockade. Perhaps you’ve heard of Nimitz-class carriers? Lastly, as for the UN, the US has a permanent veto to do whatever we want with.
Nitpick here… Nevada is indeed a state and at least as worthy of capitalization as California is. But that aside, you want CA to start invading other states? Do I even need to explain why this is futile?
Not a chance. The Constitution, as currently interpreted, says no leaving the union. Second, California doesn’t have several hundred billion dollars. Heck, it doesn’t even have a spare million lying around. Third, on that nuke treaty again, California doesn’t have missiles. They may have bombs sitting around somewhere in the state (I don’t know for sure), but then again, they may not. Even so, you suggest that CA invade Nevada. You expect friendly relations?
Nah. You throw em in jail and confiscate their assets.
I’m generally against smilies here, but I’m really tempted to put a rolling eye one in here. Again, need I actually dignify this by explaining why exactly it couldn’t happen?
-Psi Cop
Whoa there, this could be a windfall for loyal 49! The outstanding Federal Debt as of September 2002 was $6,255,406,000,000 (rounded up to closes $1,000,000). This debt does not exist in a vacuum, it exists as Goverment held securities ($2,675,647,000,000) and public held securities ($3,579,759,000,000). It the second number I’m interested in. California’s populations is on the order of 1/6 of the total US population. It’s reasonable to assume that one sixth of the publicly held securities are held by Californians. That totals $596,626,500,000. I image a similar argument could be made for the goverment held stuff (Old Age Survivor’s insurance and the like). So if California wanted to renege on their share of the federal debt, it would stand to reason that the US would cancel any obligations it had toward Californian US Treasury Bond Holders. The net effect would be the US federal debt would drop 600 Billion to maybe One Trillion Dollars.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Psi Cop *
Sigh. All the arguments about siezing nuclear weapons are, to put it briefly, pointless.
It wouldn’t be pointless if some rogue state had them and threatened to use them, would it? Chemical and biological weapons couldn’t be had either, could they?
**California doesn’t have missiles. They may have bombs sitting around somewhere in the state (I don’t know for sure), but then again, they may not. **
They may have? According to this map CA has several places that make nuclear weapons.
Nah. You throw em in jail and confiscate their assets.
Throw the whole state of CA in jail. I see.
I’m generally against smilies here, but I’m really tempted to put a rolling eye one in here. Again, need I actually dignify this by explaining why exactly it couldn’t happen?
I’d rather you explain it to Osama bin Laden how it couldn’t happen.
JZ
Are you proposing that California would be able to muster more uniformity than the colonies did against King George (the III, not W, that is). As I understand it, no more than a 1/3 of the colonists were really ready to fight when it all got started.
And you don’t have to throw everyone in jail. Just a few, with news footage of their arrest and of their houses being publicly auctioned. That ought to take care of a large part of the problem.
Besides, I thought them Californians loved to pay taxes.
Ouch! Now that hurts. Not sure how all of the numbers would add up once it was all said and done, but this would definitely have many rethinking their position, including mine if I had any assests worth taking.
JZ
No I’m not. Even 1/3 would be too much, I think. That’s why I put in my first post if the majority of the Californians had the will to succeed.
**Besides, I thought them Californians loved to pay taxes. **
I’ve heard the same.
JZ
How much you wanna bet that there are 10 times as many Texas license plates in the officers’ parking lots than there are California plates. No need to pay income tax if you don’t have to.
OK, I meant to specify the parking lots at Fort Ord (or any other California base).
John, you said somehing about millions of people not paying taxes. That’s besides the point - the reason they get a way with it is because they don’t do it collectively.
Look at it this way: every night, across the country, thousands of people break into shops and steal stuff, and if the government catches them it thows them in jail. On the other hand, if thousands of people are running down the same street, breaking into stores and stealing stuff, the government calls in the National Guard.
[Horace Greeley voice]
Let the erring sister go.
[end voice]