# Cab you be sued if your religion is discriminatory? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 28, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104 "2011-06-28T03:59:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/21 "2011-06-28T16:27:01Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I am curious if you think that a photographer should be permitted to refuse to photograph an interracial wedding , because he “disagreed with the message it conveyed”? What if his disagreement had a religious basis? No on either case, and that second one is what I was going to say my disagreement with the case at hand was with. This is a tough one. Mind if I bounce a complete hypothetical off you regarding this? What should a photographer in New Mexico do if a group comes forward to hire them to take photographs at an orgy and they feel uncomfortable doing so? Are they obligated to take the job? Or if someone wants to get married while jumping out of an airplane and they’re terrified of both planes and falling several thousand feet? I guess “skydivers” isn’t a protected class, but what about the orgy? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/22 "2011-06-28T16:36:53Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > No on either case, and that second one is what I was going to say my disagreement with the case at hand was with. This is a tough one. Mind if I bounce a complete hypothetical off you regarding this? What should a photographer in New Mexico do if a group comes forward to hire them to take photographs at an orgy and they feel uncomfortable doing so? Are they obligated to take the job? Or if someone wants to get married while jumping out of an airplane and they’re terrified of both planes and falling several thousand feet? I guess “skydivers” isn’t a protected class, but what about the orgy? People having an orgy aren’t protected by the New Mexico Human Rights law. You can refuse service for any reason that isn’t a discriminatory reason. Unless he known locally as the orgy-photographer, and now refuses to photograph his latest scheduled orgy because it consists of asians/gay people/muslims (ie, his refusal is solely on the basis of a protected classification), he can refuse all he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/23 "2011-06-28T16:38:40Z")
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/24 "2011-06-28T17:26:57Z")
Basically, judges are not stupid (usuallY) despite appearances. If you are a club - let’s say, Curves - you sign up once and come in every week, over and over. If you are a business open to the public, and “pretend to be a club” by making people sign up when they walk in the door, the judge will see through that game. A few minutes of signing up and months or years of patronizing - club. Walk in, sign up with X, do business with X, probably never see the business again - not a club. Somewhere in between - grey area, call the supremes and book an appointment for 8 years from now after $500,000 of litigation up the appeal ladder. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/25 "2011-06-28T18:23:12Z")
I recall seeing some discussion of whether an businessman who was willing to do business with women, but not to shake hands with her, would be considered discriminatory. It seemed to be a more complicated question than it appeared at the outset. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/26 "2011-06-28T21:27:07Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > if a person holds their business out to the public, they cannot choose not to serve gay people in New Mexico any more than they can choose not to serve black people. So per the OP’s example, the henna artist could be trouble in New Mexico if she refused to work on men? (Assuming she was offering henna art outside of the additional shelter provided by a private club?) On a tangent, how do religious restrictions work if only some members of the religion obey the restriction? Is it reasonable to argue that “My religion prevents me from doing X” if we can point to other (self-identified) members of the same religion who do X? (As a silly example I’m thinking of my Muslim ex-flatmate who very much enjoyed his red wine and bacon… pursuing this line of thought would seem to lead to a True Scotman issue… or a situation where anyone could claim that anything was or was not prevented or required by ones religion). ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/27 "2011-06-28T21:59:03Z")
In Britain there’s been a controversy about Christian bed & breakfast owners refusing to admit gay couples: > **[Gay couple turned away from B&B by Christian owners](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/mar/21/gay-couple-refused-hotel-room)** > > 'Shocked and embarrassed' pair say they felt treated like lepers and reported matter to police A different B&B owner was successfully sued for over £3000 although some Christian B&B owners have received letters of support from homosexuals who obviously don’t agree with the law as it is. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/28 "2011-06-29T01:37:06Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > So per the OP’s example, the henna artist could be trouble in New Mexico if she refused to work on men? (Assuming she was offering henna art outside of the additional shelter provided by a private club?) > > On a tangent, how do religious restrictions work if only some members of the religion obey the restriction? Is it reasonable to argue that “My religion prevents me from doing X” if we can point to other (self-identified) members of the same religion who do X? (As a silly example I’m thinking of my Muslim ex-flatmate who very much enjoyed his red wine and bacon… pursuing this line of thought would seem to lead to a True Scotman issue… or a situation where anyone could claim that anything was or was not prevented or required by ones religion). Usually, but by no means always, American courts try to avoid getting involved in trying to figure out what is the correct religious doctrine for a particular sect. You can see that this would essentially pull the court into ruling on theological disputes, which is something the court wants to avoid. If you show up in court claiming a completely novel religious belief that only you and nobody else on the planet holds, the court might not take it seriously, but for something like prohibitions on pork or alcohol, which are mainstream beliefs in a number of sects, the court would probably accept the religious claim at face value. But that’s a different issue then whether you can discriminate based on your religious beliefs. There are times you can (say, a Catholic church can refuse to perform a Hindu wedding) and there are times you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/29 "2011-06-29T17:57:41Z")
There is no religious exception for discrimination in cases like these. The lady in the OP is clearly in violation of the Federal Civil Rights act. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/30 "2011-06-29T18:30:21Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Cool, I guess bars can just not admit women that are not married to the owner, and law firms can not hire women who aren’t married to the partners. “Men” as a group have never had a history of persecution. “Women” as a group has. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/31 "2011-06-29T18:41:07Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > “Men” as a group have never had a history of persecution. “Women” as a group has. Legally not relevant at all. “Sex” is a protected class. Not “women but not men.” ---
**Author:** ![Deegeea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Deegeea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deegeea)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/32 "2011-06-29T18:43:57Z")
Is it possible to apply henna designs without touching a person? Say, with a special brush or similar implement? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/33 "2011-06-29T18:49:51Z")
Yeah, or just wear gloves, right? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/34 "2011-06-29T21:54:38Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > But that’s a different issue then whether you can discriminate based on your religious beliefs. There are times you can (say, a Catholic church can refuse to perform a Hindu wedding) and there are times you can’t. So basically, if you are offering a secular service then discriminatory religious beliefs cannot trump secular non-discrimination laws? Yep, sounds logical to me… and would presumably (depending on the OP’s jurisdiction) put the henna artist in jeopardy of running afoul of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/35 "2011-06-29T22:06:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > There is no religious exception for discrimination in cases like these. The lady in the OP is clearly in violation of the Federal Civil Rights act. Please fight my ignorance. Where in the Federal Civil Rights act are men considered a protected class? ---
**Author:** ![ushimitsudoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9a140/32.png) [@ushimitsudoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ushimitsudoki)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/36 "2011-06-29T22:18:12Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Please fight my ignorance. Where in the Federal Civil Rights act are men considered a protected class? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected\_class](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class) Sex is a protected class. Not “female” or “male”. Sex. You can not discriminate on the basis of sex. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/37 "2011-06-29T22:29:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Salvation Army is a church. That gets state funding. > [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > I recall seeing some discussion of whether an businessman who was willing to do business with women, but not to shake hands with her, would be considered discriminatory. It seemed to be a more complicated question than it appeared at the outset. I hope not. I feel that as a female, I am not obligated to touch **anyone**. And vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/38 "2011-06-29T22:38:06Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > That gets state funding. You don’t really know anything about this. As it happens, my wife is a government grant writer for the Salvation Army. The SA gets finds to run certain programs (or rather, it competes with other agencies to be able to run those programs), but they are not permitted to discriminate in hiring or in services for those particular programs, and they are not permitted to mix those funds with church money. So your assertion that the SA discriminates against Jews is ignorant, paranoid bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/39 "2011-06-29T22:52:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Legally not relevant at all. “Sex” is a protected class. Not “women but not men.” Depends where the OP is, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104/40 "2011-06-29T22:56:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > **You don’t really know anything about this.** As it happens, my wife is a government grant writer for the Salvation Army. The SA gets finds to run certain programs (or rather, it competes with other agencies to be able to run those programs), but they are not permitted to discriminate in hiring or in services for those particular programs, and they are not permitted to mix those funds with church money. So your assertion that the SA discriminates against Jews is ignorant, paranoid bullshit. First, to think that SA would prosper without its millions in government funding is rather silly. Second, [you stand corrected](http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/wanted_true_believers_only). [et](http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/archives/2006/10/31/salv-army-review/) [cet](http://www.39online.com/news/local/kiah-salvation-army-immigration-story,0,3222170.story) [era](http://www.gaypasg.org/gaypasg/PressClippings/2005/Nov/Judge-%20lawsuit%20by%20gay%20Jewish%20man.htm) [Jewish groups urge Obama to reinstate anti-discrimination provision](http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/06/22/3088258/jewish-organizations-letter-urging-obama-to-reinstate-anti-discrimination) There was also some talk about Jewish organizations and whether they are not allowed to discriminate in hiring practices. I see why not if they don’t receive government funding. I give the SA a dirty look around Christmastime, but that’s it. I buy toys for kids or food for families through other organizations. I don’t see how the IRS can give extra scrutiny to a [pro-Israel organization](http://www.taxgirl.com/jewish-group-accuses-irs-of-discrimination/)and not the Salvation Army. Don’t fool yourself, **Dio.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cab-you-be-sued-if-your-religion-is-discriminatory/587104.md?page=3)