Since this is a cable thread, thought I’d include a couple true stories proving the customers aren’t always out to rip off the company, or When Bad/Incompetant Employees Happen to Conglomerates.
Back in the day, when cable is first out, my parents sign up. They get HBO to see what the fuss is about, decide it’s not worth it, cancel.
I come home to visit. Channel-flipping, I say I thought you cancelled the HBOWe didIt’s still here. After more channel-flipping, I figure out that a non-local PBS station has been cancelled instead.
Fast forward several years. They get a VCR, and blow out the cable trying to install it. Cable guy comes and fixes everything. Doesn’t say a word, but the HBO has now vanished. Parents wait to see if an back invoice will appear, but one never does.
Shorter story:
Two friends of mine move, get cable installed. Two cable guys show up at 9:00 a.m. Husband being a hospitable sort, asks if they want something to drink. Fills an order for two beers. Does not solicit for extra services in any way. Ends up with a lot more channels than requested.
I think that satellite scrambling is more sophisticated than cable scrambling (most cable scrambling systems seem to involve monkeying around with the sync signal; I believe many satellite scrambling systems involve actual encryption of the entire datastream).
I checked my deed and they do not have the right to enter my property to snoop around for an illegal box. They can do whatever they want on the easement, but I, the property owner, own the line on my property and the signal it carries. You’re right, they’re free to shut it off, but not free to trespass. A silly notion indeed to think that a cable emergency would exist requiring entering my home without permission or a search warrant.
This thread has the lowest signal-to-noise ratio of any I’ve ever seen. I’d like to take a shot at some of the misperceptions I’ve read. By the way, remember when The Simpsons had a guy illegally connect them to cable? When they asked if it was immoral, he gave them a pamphlet - “So you’ve decided to steal cable…”.
I’m not involved with the TV cable industry (I don’t even have cable service at home), but I’m as close to being an expert on RF measurements as you’re going to find around here.
Sending current/voltage spikes - you really think the cable company is going to take a risk of damaging your TV and their equipment by sending a hundred-volt spike down a line, where sensitive electronics are trying to pick up signals in the millionths of a volt? Get serious…
Detector trucks - a truck couldn’t tell the difference between different types of coaxial cable. I don’t know how the illegal boxes work, but if they contain a local oscillator it’s possible someone could pick up that your LO is at a different frequency from the company’s units. However, I think most illegal boxes are passive, and would not put out any signals strong enough to be snooped.
T-shirt/pizza offer for illegal viewers only - surely no one here really believes this. I’m getting images of Homer going to the police station to claim his motorboat.
Time Domain Reflectometer - this measurement technique is great for finding the distance to cable discontinuities. And it could tell the technician that too much of the signal is bouncing back into their network, which could cause multipath problems for other customers. But it’s not sensitive enough to look for signatures of equipment inside the house, especially considering that there are probably splitters in-between. And someone mentioned that a TDR did a “complex frequency sweep” - it doesn’t. A TDR sends a fast, low-voltage pulse down the line and then waits for the reflections of that pulse to come back to it, sort of like how a radar works. When I say “pulse”, what I mean is that it goes from one constant voltage to another, and makes the transition in a very short time. In general, what you would want is for the pulse to be completely absorbed in your house, so none of it would come back to cause them trouble. If there is a bad connection somewhere, what you’d see is that a significant amount of the pulse would come back, and the time it took to do so would tell you how far down the line the reflection occurred. The pulse travels at the speed of light divided by the square root of the dielectric constant of the cable’s internal insulating material, which comes out to about 210mm (eight inches) per nanosecond.
stolichnaya: No, it’s not up yet. In fact, the whole group seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth. As best I can tell, most of the “task force’s” duties have been absorbed by the Cable Signal Theft Department of the National Cable Television Association . They are working on a page, too, but won’t put it on the net until they firm up all the recent local laws. Sorry I couldn’t help. WhiteNight: From 47 USC 553 :
In addition to being civilly liable for copyright violations, damages and similar (covered under section 3, as it happens), theft of a cable signal is, uh, theft. It is also a separate theft under state law in each and every of the 50 States. In your corner of the world (which is really just cold storage until the US needs the natural resources anyway), it is also theft. And the reason theft is illegal is because it is morally wrong.
Your inability to acknowledge that theft is in and of itself morally wrong is just about 100% of everything I need to know about your character.
The next time you call me a liar, please do so in the Pit where I can respond appropriately.
CurtC: Thanks for the intelligent input, and I love the signal to noise comment. I was never completely satisfied with the whole TDR business, you’ve helped.
Okay, enlighten us a bit more here - seems to me you’ll get some small reflection at each connection (mostly 'cause they’re not perfect?). What happens to the pulse when it gets into the equipment, though? Does it get absorbed by the electronics; if so, does it reflect if the equipment is off?
WhiteNight:
I’m not sure I’d agree with this totally, but that’s an excellent point and it probably would be a legal rat’s nest. Enough potential trouble to make them decide not to do it. (CurtC, if your reference to the detector truck was back to this point, my vision was to have it look at the image on the screen, not the signals radiated back out by the descrambler. It would be using the IF signals in the TV itself and wouldn’t care less about any other equipment in the room.)
Bobby O: consider that part of the installers job might be to make sure that you’re only getting the cable that you’re paying for - they might have a duty to report any violations. Granted, a couple beers might make them less diligent but why take the chance? Here (Western Canada), the installers are employees that work for the provider, so it’s not an issue. Personally, I’d never even on a bet consider hooking up a cable they’ve cut. Even after the $1,000 fine and possible jail time you’d probably never get legal cable again in your life.
manhattan:
Agreed, thank you.
Finally, can anyone tell me why this thread started up again after a month and a half? Answer that one and you’ve understood everything …
The courts ruled recently that it is illegal to download a program allowing you to copy DVD.
It is estimated by the cable industry that up to half of all people watching PPV events are pirating the program.
I don’t understand why the cable industry isn’t more aggressive at doing something about this so called problem. Why aren’t artists demanding that the industry take measures at protecting their intellectual property? If it is illegal to own a program allowing you to copy DVD discs, why won’t the cable industry try to petition the courts to follow suit?
And if that were to occur, would the cable industry cut their rates in half?
I understand that when the government deregulated the phone industry, we were allowed to own our own phone equipment, and the same law allows us to own our own cable boxes, but I don’t see how owning a box with a descrambling chip that’s only purpose is to descramble premium channels and PPV is protected.
I understand everything. Well, I know why this post was dragged up after going away for a while. I was looking for a topic about the movie “Ravenous” and did a search for the word. A few posts were returned and this one caught my eye. After reading it, I had a few questions. And, manhattan said that if we brought this post back, a link would be provided, so I brought it back.
Now, since I understand all, if you want my opinion on the unified field stuff . . .
If I have the cable company come install basic service, I will still recieve scrambled premium channels with sound. I did not ask to have access to these channels, the cable company chooses to send them to me. Say I want to listen in to the audio portion of a heavy weight championship fight. Am I stealing? The cable company would say yes, but they’re not willing to take the measures needed to stop my theft.
My feeling is the industry sees this as a fact of life and is unwilling to take the necessary action to stop this.
Manhattan: You are totally correct that theft is theft. But I think the cable industry has to bear some responsibility for making it so easy to steal the signals and the artists have to be more aggressive in demanding that the cable industry clean up it’s own act.
Curt C: I’ve never seen the free pizza scam, but it makes perfect sense to me. Not that they can only send signals to the illegal boxes, but that they send the signal to all boxes via the PPV signal and then nab the folks who call in to claim the reward but aren’t on the approved list. When I used to have cable (more on that later), the cable company identified my by my telephone number. I didn’t even have to do anything - just call the special phone number for whatever PPV I wanted and the caller-ID device on their end would oblige my request automatically. Certainly they could set up a similar scam, send free pizzas to the folks they know and send trouble to the folks who shouldn’t be seeing the message…
RonaldBarnhardt: Maybe if it weren’t so damn expensive, more people would be legitimate about it. Sure, it’s a downward spiral (less honest people means a higher price), but there has to be a connection.
Handy, Torq, et al: After getting fed up with being charged excessive rates, getting nickel and dimed out the ass, getting double-billed TWICE for the said charges, and then wading through atrocious customer service, I bought a dish this summer and have been extremely happy.
You might want to check out the message boards at www.dbsdish.com - you’ll get plenty of answers to your questions.
As far as my attempts at answering, here goes -
The satellite system works via a unique elctronic access card. Every system is sold with a card - the number of the card is how the DSS computer identifies your system. When you order a PPV event, the computer adds your card number to the general signal stream that’s broadcast to everyone and then your decoder recognizes your number within the signal, sees it’s authorized, and then shows the program. It’s actually pretty simple.
There are cards out there (I’ve never seen one) that are supposedly “universal” and when recognized by your decoder, they automatically decode everything on the signal. I’m not sure where these cards come from - I think they’re authorized by the provider for various reasons. The general rap though, is that they only last for about three months and then the provider changes the universal code and your card becomes worthless unless you want to pay someone (again, a shady rumor) to reprogram your card. These things are on Ebay all the time.
DBSdish.com will usually close any thread that gets started about these cards because the guy who runs the site wants to stay in good graces with the DSS providers. If anyone here knows more about it, I would love to hear what you know as I’ve never been privy to a detailed discussion.
I’m sure I got some details wrong, but that’s the general idea.
It is estimated by the cable industry that up to half of all people watching PPV events are pirating the program.
Well, what do they expect? Some of those events can cost $50-100.
I don’t understand why the cable industry isn’t more aggressive at doing something about this so called problem.
There’s not much they can legally do about it, except for certain methods of detecting illegal DIY cable hookups.
I’ve seen auctions on ebay for CD-ROMs with many different plans to build various types of descramblers. (They generally come with other fun information) Does anyone know anything about this?
Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think.
A friend of mine had a ‘device’, designed by an uncle of his. Plug the device into the IN line on your cable box, flip the switch, wait 10 seconds, disconnect. Then, attach a special filter between the incoming line and your box.
Presto. All channels, all the time, including Pay-Per-View. The device apparently erased the EEPROM inside the box, effectively making it forget what you weren’t supposed to get. The filter blocked signals from the cable company that reprogrammed the box to get only the channels you paid for.
After about a month, the box would lose all channels, though, and would have to be zapped again.
I haven’t tried the device since my cable company switched box-types. I’m not sure if it’ll fry the new ones.
Also, about TDRs: the most recent posts, comparing TDRs to radar, are correct. But whoever said it required a pair of conductors is incorrect; in 1993 I used a fiber TDR, which sent out a light pulse to detect signal strength along the length of the fiber-optic line. Since light’s so fast, it couldn’t detect a break within about 30 meters of the TDR, but still, mighty handy. Splices showed up as funky breaks on the oscilloscope-esque display, accompanied by a slight drop in signal strength. A TDR can show you where splices and breaks are in a cable, but nothing else. It’s a line-quality tester.
Well, I tried to read all the repsonses before I posted, but I just couldn’t make it thought them all. My brother in law works for Time Warner cable, and he said they don’t check for illegal boxes, and don’t give a rats ass who has them.
They even get disgruntled exes calling and ratting each other out, still they do nothing. They can’t prove how long soemeone has had the thing, they can’t spend the money in legal fees to prosecute/sue people, and they have no special equipment AT ALL.
That’s his story, and he’s worked there forever- I’m willing to bet he knows what he’s talking about.
Zette
Love is like popsicles…you get too much you get too high.
One the DSS system, to rent a movie, you just use the remote to click in the order and the box sends out a message to the company through and attached phone line, and you get the program and a bill later on. A friend claims you can get movies for free by just disconnecting the phone line and then ordering. My question is: is it possible that the manufacturers of the box are so stupid that the box doesn’t have to successfully contact the company to display the movies?
The DSS box doesn’t call in every time you order. It calls in the middle of the night. It also calls every few days to “check-in” with the computer and let DSS know that everything is A-OK with your system. If DSS doesn’t hear from your system it eventually puts a block on your account (sent via the dish) that tells your system that it’s ineligible for PPV.
I think that your friend’s tactic would work for a few days but then DSS would send a signal to his box to block out PPV until it calls back. Then, all of his purchases are downloaded to DSS and he gets a bill that must be paid before block will be lifted.
Theft, by the definitions I’ve seen, is the taking of something with the intent to deprive the owner of that thing.
Copying of information ‘property’ doesn’t deny the owner the use of that property, so it’s not theft.
I didn’t say that theft wasn’t wrong, you don’t seem to actually read the message.
I said that calling piracy morally wrong and equating it with theft, just because there’s a law against it, is silly. To me, morals and laws are seperate. There are laws against actions I consider morally fine, and many actions I consider morally corrupt are perfectly legal. Thus is I was to base my actions purely on laws, I would, I feel, be morally wrong.
I choose to decide for myself what is right and what is wrong. That is what I said in my original message. To do otherwise would seem to be sheep-like, easily led into things which I’d justify by saying that I was “just following orders.”
If I choose not to steal cable, it’s not because someone told me not to and I’m afraid of getting caught, it’s because I choose not to, for my own reasons. That seems more sincere than someone willing to do anything as long as it’s technically legal.
Copyrights were invented to give authors a legal reason to publish, by preventing the legal copying of their work for a set period of time. In trade for this legal protection from the people, the author would concede the right for people to use their work after a period of time, long enough to make it worth their while to publish, but short enough to allow free flow of ideas.
To me, this was all well and good, until copyright terms kept getting extended, until now they’re virtually one-sided. The author gets legal protection for their work, and society doesn’t reap any compensation for this protection during the lifetime of anyone alive when the work was created. To me, this is a law that failed.
Being that I see the law as morally right, I feel it’s up to me to make up my own mind on this issue. I feel that if we all ‘owned’ our ideas, and nobody could use an idea that someone else had first, we’d stagnate, had we ever accomplished anything to stagnate in the first place. Ideas aren’t created in a vacumn. To give exclusive rights to the first person with a specific idea, without regard for the ideas they used to get there, seems wrong.
So, I base my actions in this area on harm. If my actions harm someone, then I would consider them to be wrong. If my actions don’t harm someone, then I see no problem.
If I download an MP3 of a song that I’d never buy, I don’t cost the artist anything. I don’t even subtract from the money they might have made, because I wouldn’t buy music I’d never heard.
If my actions in dealing with the music I already own are technically illegal, oh well. I feel that by paying for a CD I gain the right to use the data encoded on there in any way I see fit, except for distributing it with the intention or likely posibility of reducing sales. If it’s technically illegal for me to rip my CDs and store them on the hard drive, then I’m perfectly content to be breaking that law, because it’s one I don’t feel is just.
Call that the empty rationalizations of a thief, if you must, but look at it the other way. If you blindly follow the law instead of your heart, you’re an easily led automaton.
You haven’t shown me that piracy is theft, so I don’t feel you’ve shown that my views on piracy are relevant to my views on theft.
Meanwhile, your snap judgements and high and mighty attitude say a lot about your character, as does your willingness to be led.
Feel free to start a thread about this in the pit if you wish. Mention it here and I’ll stop by. If you have anything interesting to say, I may even respond.
What do you call it when someone posts repeated moralistic diatribes that judge others by his own set of morals? It’s called witnessing, and it belongs in the GD.
If someone asked a question regrding sex with her boyfriend, and I came on to say “Sex outside of marriage is SIN. It’s the same as murder in God’s eyes.”, then I’d be out of line. So are you. You want to debate ethics, then take it somewhere appropriate.
I’d expect the average Joe to post off topic, in the wrong conf, just unable to resist the urge to condemn other people’s characters. But you’re a moderator. You’re supposed to be setting an example here.