# Cage's 4:33 -- Genius or Garbage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 2, 2007, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779 "2007-09-02T03:58:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/41 "2007-09-04T14:55:17Z")
Imagine the royalties he (or his estate) must be getting. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/42 "2007-09-04T15:27:22Z")
[QUOTE=Junior Spaceman] Revanant Threshold, point taken, and we’re just going to have to agree to disagree 🙂 [/QUOTE] No worries. 🙂 [QUOTE=RealityChuck] Paris Hilton is still doing things; Cage’s piece is nearly 60 years old. I doubt we’d be talking about Paris Hilton in 60 years. If it’s trash, then it would have been forgotten. The fact that people are not only aware of it after 60 years, but also have strong opinions as to its value, proves that it has lasted – the primary definition of any work of art. And the fact that someone can create a bit of music that is still argued about forcefully after 60 years, is a definite sign of genius. [/QUOTE] By that primary definition, _anything_ is art if you wait long enough. That it is still argued about doesn’t imply greatness or genius - just that some people _think_ it is great or genius. And logically if you accept that all of us who think it’s not all that good can be wrong, your side could equally be incorrect. I would point out also that when people talk about it, they just as often seem to be talking about things that are not it; to take this thread as an example, they’re talking about the ambient sounds they can hear, not the silence itself. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/43 "2007-09-04T16:36:00Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] This post is art too [/QUOTE] And this post is the Andy Warhol version. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/44 "2007-09-04T16:49:56Z")
ftr I’ve never have attended a performance of 4:33. I would lean towards the genius side of the genius/garbage scale. It is a little like Jazz. It’s made up as it goes. Also, a rest is equal to a note. A composer writes rests, just as well as they write notes. The rests count. This is just a work or all rests. The question to me would be: Is 4:33 the proper ammount of rests? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/45 "2007-09-04T17:19:20Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Now, I’m not saying that a “performance” of 4’33" doesn’t make a point, because I agree that it does, if it’s in the correct context. It’s still gimmicky, but gimmicks can make a point. However, it’s not a genuine musical composition. **dropzone** calls it a “brilliant composition” but it is, by definition, _not a composition._ A composition is composed of things, not nothing. It’s… well, a form of performance art, I suppose. [/QUOTE] Of course it’s composed of something. If you watch the peformance of the piece, everyone has sheet music, the conductor turns the pages, and there are instructions for all the musicians (including, presumably, a time signature), just like any other composition. The only difference is that there are rests. A _lot_ of them. The only recorded work I own performed by Frank Zappa is [this piece.](http://www.amazon.com/Chance-Operation-John-Cage-Tribute/dp/samples/B000001SH6/ref=dp_tracks_all_1/102-3908851-8858548?ie=UTF8&qid=1188925934&sr=1-54#disc_1) ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/46 "2007-09-04T17:30:09Z")
I’ve always wanted to walk to the information desk at a library and scream at the top of my lungs: I’M AS BIG A JOHN CAGE FAN AS ANYBODY BUT CAN YOU PLEASE TURN THE MUSIC DOWN I CAN BARELY HEAR MYSELF THINK! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/47 "2007-09-04T17:57:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t follow you. Of course it exists as a work - it’s four and a half minutes (or thereabouts) of musical pauses. When you turn off the television, nobody’s saying that what you’re hearing is 4’33" On the contrary: Somebody **is** saying that when I turn off the TV, what I’m hearing is 4’33". I’m saying it. And if we’re going to define great art based on how well it endures, and how much later people are talking about it, then that graffiti they found in the ruins of Pompeii is about five times as great a work of art as the Mona Lisa. It’s not art unless there’s some sort of communication of emotion from the artist to the audience. Now, a person attending a “performance” of 4’33" may experience an emotional response, but it’s not something that came from Cage; it’s something that came from the birds singing, or the other audience members fidgeting in their seats, or from the semi that drove past. In such a case, the truck driver has a better claim to being an artist than John Cage does. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/48 "2007-09-04T18:04:53Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Now, a person attending a “performance” of 4’33" may experience an emotional response, but it’s not something that came from Cage; it’s something that came from the birds singing, or the other audience members fidgeting in their seats, or from the semi that drove past. In such a case, the truck driver has a better claim to being an artist than John Cage does. [/QUOTE] If it weren’t for Cage, you wouldn’t be paying attention to any of that. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/49 "2007-09-04T21:23:14Z")
[QUOTE=ultrafilter] If it weren’t for Cage, you wouldn’t be paying attention to any of that. [/QUOTE] Says who? If all the musicians just got up and walked off stage, without any sort of announcement, for 4’33", leaving the concert-goers to fidget in their seats, how would that be a different experience? How about if the musicians just sat there with a stopwatch instead of a metronome, thereby obviating the need to turn pages or count rests? ---
**Author:** ![percussion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/43a26b/32.png) [@percussion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/percussion)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/50 "2007-09-04T22:10:59Z")
they do sit there with a stop watch…I really think your missing the point, which has been spelt out twice already in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/51 "2007-09-05T01:07:17Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] Of course it’s composed of something. If you watch the peformance of the piece, everyone has sheet music, the conductor turns the pages, and there are instructions for all the musicians (including, presumably, a time signature), just like any other composition. The only difference is that there are rests. A _lot_ of them. [/QUOTE] Well, no. It does not necessarily have to be performed that way. It could be performed without sheet music (just as all music can be performed without sheet music) simply by having the conductor time it from his watch. It could be performed by a guitarist using a clock. It could be performed by a vocalist with a stopwatch. It could be perfomed by a cellist with a very good sense of timing. It could be performed by the Rolling Stones using an egg timer. What you are describing is certainly a form of performance art - it’s a wordless theatre, I guess - but it’s not music, and the performance as such is composed entirely by the performers. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/52 "2007-09-05T02:08:34Z")
My boss plays violin in a string quartet (and in larger ensembles as well). I poked my head into her office today: Me: “Hey, have you ever performed 4’33?” Her: “I’m not familiar with that title.” Me: “It’s by Cage…” Her: “I HATE John Cage!!!” Me: “It’s four minutes and thirty-three seconds of silene.” Her: “Oh! One of his better compositions, then!” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/53 "2007-09-05T02:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=blondebear] Her: “I HATE John Cage!!!” Me: “It’s four minutes and thirty-three seconds of silene.” Her: “Oh! One of his better compositions, then!” [/QUOTE] It’s just about the **only** jazz composition I can even listen to. ---
**Author:** ![shimmery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@shimmery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shimmery)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/54 "2007-09-05T07:38:09Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] What you are describing is certainly a form of performance art - it’s a wordless theatre, I guess - but it’s not music, and the performance as such is composed entirely by the performers. [/QUOTE] Yes, as I mentioned before, this is a key feature of many of Cage’s works.\* See [this](http://www.kunst.uni-stuttgart.de/wendland/progetti/mondovi/fontana.gif) score, for example. Introducing elements of indeterminacy - elements that would be by their very nature beyond the composer’s direct control - was one of Cage’s favorite ideas. ETA: in the class I mentioned, we performed an “indeterminate” piece composed by my teacher - it was extremely cool. I get the sense that many of you think Cage is something of a one-trick pony, but I find that the deeper you dig into him, the more fascinating he becomes. There’s quite a lot of real substance there, in my opinion. I’d recommend [this](http://www.amazon.com/Music-John-Cage-Twentieth-Century/dp/0521565448/ref=sr_1_2/105-3188315-2698830?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188977541&sr=8-2) book as a good starting point for learning about him. I do recall that it can get a little technical music-wise, which was beyond me personally, but is also perfectly interesting and informative if you skim those parts. \*Being “composed” by the performers, that is, not being not-music ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/55 "2007-09-05T08:51:32Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] What you are describing is certainly a form of performance art - it’s a wordless theatre, I guess - but it’s not music, and the performance as such is composed entirely by the performers. [/QUOTE] This question, “is it music or is it performance?” along with its mother: “is it art?” is strictly semantic in nature and rather pointless. We learn nothing by arguing about it because in the end all we’ve done is provide a definition for a term. The time we spent doing so would have been time better spent actually talking about the value of the object in question. You miss the point if you believe the performance as such is composed entirely by the performers. The performer is necessary only as a signal to the audience: get into music listening mode. It was particularly relevant at the premiere, the pianist was David Tudor, who specialised in contemporary repertoire. Because of this the audience was expecting just about anything, and that’s what they got. If there had not been a performer, people probably would not have listenened as they did. However, the performer’s action is not the piece, it is not what is put up for appreciation; the object is everything that will inevitably happen. Is it music? Is it a gimmick? Is it art? Will your life be richer for asking youself these questions? > [@](#): > > I have spent many pleasant hours in the woods conducting performances of my silent piece, transcriptions, that is, for an audience of myself, since they were much longer than the popular length which I have had published. At one performance, I passed the first movement by attempting the identification of a mushroom which remained successfully unidentified. The second movement was extremely dramatic, beginning with the sounds of a buck and a doe leaping up to within ten feet of my rocky podium. The expressivity of this movement was not only dramatic but unusually sad from my point of view, for the animals were frightened simply because I was a human being. However, they left hesitatingly and fittingly within the structure of the work. The third movement was a return to the theme of the first, but with all those profounds, so-well-known alterations of world feeling associated by German tradition with the A-B-A. From John Cage’s _Music Lovers’ Field Companion_, published in _Silence_. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/56 "2007-09-05T10:48:49Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] The question to me would be: Is 4:33 the proper ammount of rests? [/QUOTE] [The score.](http://www.medienkunstnetz.de/works/4-33/images/3/) [QUOTE=RickJay] However, it’s not a genuine musical composition. **dropzone** calls it a “brilliant composition” but it is, by definition, _not a composition._ A composition is composed of things, not nothing. [/QUOTE] I’d draw the parallel with Barbara Hepworth’s sculptures. What makes them is not the solid item, but the holes, the absences of material. They are not only made of wood or metal, but also of empty space. With sculpture, one cannot continue this as far as the entire object consisting of the absence of material, because it ceases to exists. With 4’33", Cage used the framework of a traditional concert presentation (as noted already), which enabled him to do with music (not ‘with sound’) that which could not be done with marble. One additional note (ha!) urging people not to judge the piece without experiencing it: the only thing it _will_ not be is silent. If very few other sounds are heard, the sound of one’s own blood passing through the ears, and even one’s pulse, becomes evident. One cannot experience true silence. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/57 "2007-09-05T10:52:16Z")
Hee hee: the publishers list it under the following catagories: > [@](#): > > Bassoon (Solo) > Cello (Solo) > Clarinet (Solo) > Contemporary Large Ensemble/Orchestra > Contemporary Medium Ensemble > Contemporary Small Ensemble > Double Bass (Solo) > Flute/Piccolo (Solo) > Guitar/Lute (Solo) > Harp (Solo) > … > **[Edition Peters](https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/publishers/edition-peters/)** Cage (who did have a wicked sense of humour) would have approved, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/58 "2007-09-05T11:46:39Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Hee hee: the publishers list it under the following catagories: > **[Edition Peters](https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/publishers/edition-peters/)** Cage (who did have a wicked sense of humour) would have approved, I’m sure. [/QUOTE] I admire their nerve in charging $5.50 for the sheet music. I’m sure Cage’s estate approve of that, too. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/59 "2007-09-05T15:25:29Z")
[QUOTE=Colophon] I admire their nerve in charging $5.50 for the sheet music. I’m sure Cage’s estate approve of that, too. 😛 [/QUOTE] During the legal wrangle a few years ago with [Mike Batt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Batt), they reduced it to a special discount price - $4.33. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9adbd/32.png) [@Mike\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Fun)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779/60 "2007-09-05T16:25:25Z")
Maybe this thread should be called “Fluxus: get it or not?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cages-4-33-genius-or-garbage/417779.md?page=4)