# Cain feared retribution for murdering his brother. Whom did he fear, exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148 "2010-04-06T15:25:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/21 "2010-04-06T18:05:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Who ever said God stopped creating people after Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel and Seth. If it didn’t say God continued creating people after finishing up with Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth, then it didn’t happen. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The Bible was not an early form of Twitter with God going “Just cr3ated platypus. WTF!!!11111ONEONEONE. : p The wolv3r!n3 will b so l33t.” about everything he did. _Snerk._ ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/22 "2010-04-06T18:10:52Z")
Do you want serious answers that are not rooted in the (genuine or “for purposes of this thread”) assumption of Biblical literalism? Or only those that are consistent with the meaning of Genesis as taught by folk who consider it the infallible word of God as written etc? I believe that several of the early books (i.e., the Torah) contain tales about _individual_ people in which the individuals actually represent a People (i.e., a tribe or entire culture). • Cain = agrarians, farmers; Abel = pastoralists, raisers of livestock; these two ways of being in the world were both departures from the hunter-gatherer lifestyle; although in a conjoined fashion they gave rise to permanent settlements and eventually cities and whatnot, there was a lot of tension between the two approaches, as pastoralists were often still nomadic and would drive their flocks / herds through areas populated by more permanently settled agrarians. • Similarly, the individual children of Abraham = separate tribes or societal branches of the Semitic people. There were probably no actual individual people corresponding to the main characters in these stories, but the stories illustrate in fable form a relationship between different groups of People who did exist. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/23 "2010-04-06T18:14:11Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Do you want serious answers that are not rooted in the (genuine or “for purposes of this thread”) assumption of Biblical literalism? Or only those that are consistent with the meaning of Genesis as taught by folk who consider it the infallible word of God as written etc? I don’t feel like being a thread nazi; it’ll go where it goes, and I enjoy scholarly discussions. That said, my first interest was to find out what people raised Christian were taught as children. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/24 "2010-04-06T18:16:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t feel like being a thread nazi; it’ll go where it goes, and I enjoy scholarly discussions. That said, my first interest was to find out what people raised Christian were taught as children. When I was being raised as a Christian, they totally didn’t address it. Not even with a ten foot pole. I imagine this is not an uncommon approach. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/25 "2010-04-06T18:17:13Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Who ever said God stopped creating people after Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel and Seth. The Bible was not an early form of Twitter with God going “Just cr3ated platypus. WTF!!!11111ONEONEONE. : p The wolv3r!n3 will b so l33t.” about everything he did. Of course he didn’t cr3ate platypus. That was the Ceiling Cat. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/26 "2010-04-06T18:29:01Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > If it didn’t say God continued creating people after finishing up with Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth, then it didn’t happen._Snerk._ I’ve never had a problem with Cain mating with a sister or niece (or great-great… niece) or understood why some people do. The bible establishes (well, claims) that Adam lived 930 years. Estimating 25 years for a generation, he could easily have lived to see thirty or more generations of descendants. Since it’s never established when the Cain v. Abel conflict occurred, I don’t see why it couldn’t have been centuries after creation birth, when there were numerous siblings and their descendants milling about. Of course, such discussions are like debating exactly when Superman first met Batman, although on that question we have far better evidence. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/27 "2010-04-06T18:33:14Z")
You haven’t cited that Cane was fearful, just vexed and then overwhelmed by the decision God put on him. The issue of Cane is the system that the children bear the sins of the fathers to the 3rd and 4th generation. This is the world system that Adam bough for us, and Jesus came to remove from us. IMHO Cane is that aspect of Adam who’s sin would lead to murder, and worse, uncaring about one’s brother. As God refined cane, throughout all generations, Adam is healed. The other part, Able is the part of Adam that Adam had to suppress in himself because of his sin against God. Able, now crying out to God from Sheol, is like our soul when we suppress part of it, and it is what Adam suppressed in himself. This theme of people crying out due to injustice even from Sheol (the underworld/death), and God rescuing them even from there is a common theme (Ps 107:19-20) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/28 "2010-04-06T18:35:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > As God refined cane, throughout all generations, Adam is healed. Fine; Adam gets healed, the rest of us get diabetes. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/29 "2010-04-06T18:42:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Fine; Adam gets healed, the rest of us get diabetes. (For **kanicbird** ’s benefit: this comment is intended to point out that most of us spell Cain as Cain.) Also I’m totally confused as to whether **kanicbird** thinks Cain and Abel were separate people, or whether they were just parts of Adam’s psyche or something. And if the latter, how did part of Adam’s brain kill the other part, and how did blood from the ‘killing’ end up on the ground? 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/30 "2010-04-06T18:51:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > (For **kanicbird** ’s benefit: this comment is intended to point out that most of us spell Cain as Cain.) > > Also I’m totally confused as to whether **kanicbird** thinks Cain and Abel were separate people, or whether they were just parts of Adam’s psyche or something. And if the latter, how did part of Adam’s brain kill the other part, and how did blood from the ‘killing’ end up on the ground? 😕😕 ty for the spelling correction. IMHO They are both, a child and parts of Adam ‘psyche’ or I would prefer soul. Eve’s Love for Adam (their Love for each other) desires to give life to a aspect of their relationship. Cain is a aspect of A&E’s relationship as a single entity (the two shall become one), brought to life. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/31 "2010-04-06T18:53:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > ty for the spelling correction. > > IMHO They are both, a child and parts of Adam ‘psyche’ or I would prefer soul. Eve’s Love for Adam (their Love for each other) desires to give life to a aspect of their relationship. Cain is a aspect of A&E’s relationship as a single entity (the two shall become one), brought to life. I still can’t get all the bubbles in the wallpaper to flatten at the same time. Oh, well. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/32 "2010-04-06T19:05:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And if the latter, how did part of Adam’s brain kill the other part, and how did blood from the ‘killing’ end up on the ground? 😕😕 When one sins, it hurts our soul. We tend to wall off that part of ourselves, so we can function. One such aspect that I think is easier to see is that of abortion. There is a issue that will gnaw at a person who had a abortion, was that really a child, or just a group of cells that was not human. A person will commonly chose to believe the part that goes along with that was not a person, and hide the part that goes along with the opposite. That hidden part, the part of that person who believes that it was a child, is effectively killed off by the part that believes that it was not a child. The person may needs to do this to move on with their live - they will not be able to have peace with thoughts that it might have been a child but might not going back and forth - , but that part of their soul which they disconnected from (killed off) is real and it is a part of their own soul, which will cry out, as it has been unjustly removed. Future children from this couple very well can reflect this, as in the case of A&E, though it may reflect other aspects of their lives as well. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/33 "2010-04-06T19:06:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > When one sins, it hurts our soul. We tend to wall off that part of ourselves, so we can function. One such aspect that I think is easier to see is that of abortion. There is a issue that will gnaw at a person who had a abortion, was that really a child, or just a group of cells that was not human. A person will commonly chose to believe the part that goes along with that was not a person, and hide the part that goes along with the opposite. > > That hidden part, the part of that person who believes that it was a child, is effectively killed off by the part that believes that it was not a child. The person may needs to do this to move on with their live - they will not be able to have peace with thoughts that it might have been a child but might not going back and forth - , but that part of their soul which they disconnected from (killed off) is real and it is a part of their own soul, which will cry out, as it has been unjustly removed. > > Future children from this couple very well can reflect this, as in the case of A&E, though it may reflect other aspects of their lives as well. Abortion is not the topic of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/34 "2010-04-06T19:17:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t completely agree with this. An elder daughter or daughters would not have necessarily have been mentioned, as clearly, in the eyes of the authors of the myth, only man-children were of consequence. > > I’m not saying that to start a _Religion is sexist_ debate; it’s just that I was thinking the same thing, but then it occurred to me that, except for wives and temptresses, women figure little in the torah narrative. Yes, I’m perfectly aware of Deborah, Jael, Ruth, Esther, Dinah, but they are exceptions–and Dinah isn’t much of one. You are quite correct about women not getting mentioned. But who would they be married to? If Cain, would he be at risk from his children? If Abel, would there have to be a mark to distinguish him from his own nephews? Plus the author could have specifically mentioned the sons of Abel. The story seems to imply that the mark was meant for the benefit of strangers. Your point though is why I brought up the city - the wife of Cain problem isn’t all that interesting because it no doubt was an unidentified sister. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/35 "2010-04-06T19:21:18Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > When one sins, it hurts our soul. We tend to wall off that part of ourselves, so we can function. One such aspect that I think is easier to see is that of abortion. There is a issue that will gnaw at a person who had a abortion, was that really a child, or just a group of cells that was not human. A person will commonly chose to believe the part that goes along with that was not a person, and hide the part that goes along with the opposite. > > That hidden part, the part of that person who believes that it was a child, is effectively killed off by the part that believes that it was not a child. The person may needs to do this to move on with their live - they will not be able to have peace with thoughts that it might have been a child but might not going back and forth - , but that part of their soul which they disconnected from (killed off) is real and it is a part of their own soul, which will cry out, as it has been unjustly removed. > > Future children from this couple very well can reflect this, as in the case of A&E, though it may reflect other aspects of their lives as well. It is rude not to bring enough weed for everyone. > [@Voyager](#): > > You are quite correct about women not getting mentioned. But who would they be married to? If Cain, would he be at risk from his children? If Abel, would there have to be a mark to distinguish him from his own nephews? Plus the author could have specifically mentioned the sons of Abel. The story seems to imply that the mark was meant for the benefit of strangers. > > Your point though is why I brought up the city - the wife of Cain problem isn’t all that interesting because it no doubt was an unidentified sister. I only meant that I too had always assumed that any unmentioned daughters of Adam & Eve were younger than Cain & Abel; it only occurred to me today that an elder sister wouldn’t have merited any special mention either. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/36 "2010-04-06T19:22:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So does this mean that it is possible that there are people that are _not_ descented from Adam and/or Eve? No, because they were all wiped out in the Flood. Now from the Jewish context, extra creation has no problems. From the Christian context though, these people, not descended from Adam and Eve, would not be subject to their sins and thus should not be mortal. So one would expect massive theological problems - especially since all these people were so sinful they got wiped out. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/37 "2010-04-06T19:26:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Abortion is not the topic of this thread. Sin is, which is what I am discussing, using a very well know example of how sin can cause the very issue discusses here. Additionally I feel there is scriptural proof that some form of ‘family planning’ is the very sin of Eve that lead to the issues with Cain, which makes it a very good example to use. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/38 "2010-04-06T19:27:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t feel like being a thread nazi; it’ll go where it goes, and I enjoy scholarly discussions. That said, my first interest was to find out what people raised Christian were taught as children. Well, I was raised Jewish and went to five years of Hebrew school (conservative.) The “history” that we were taught began with Abraham. It was a long time ago, but my impression was that the pre-Abraham story, though it was in the Bible, was not considered true or literal in any sense. None of my teachers said anything against accepted theories of evolution or cosmology. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/39 "2010-04-06T19:30:11Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No, because they were all wiped out in the Flood. > Now from the Jewish context, extra creation has no problems. From the Christian context though, these people, not descended from Adam and Eve, would not be subject to their sins and thus should not be mortal. So one would expect massive theological problems - especially since all these people were so sinful they got wiped out. Stop typing faster than me. It is very annoying. Do it again and the hobbit dies. I’ll add that some persons aver that the purpose of the Deluge was to wipe out both the remainder of the non-Adamic population, any persons descended from Cain, and any persons who descended from human-Nephilim crossbreeds. The Lord of Hosts is a terrible racist. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/40 "2010-04-06T19:32:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Well, I was raised Jewish and went to five years of Hebrew school (conservative.) The “history” that we were taught began with Abraham. It was a long time ago, but my impression was that the pre-Abraham story, though it was in the Bible, was not considered true or literal in any sense. None of my teachers said anything against accepted theories of evolution or cosmology. I didn’t mean to leave out Jews, of course. I just don’t know any Jews who take any of the pre-Abraham stories as anything but metaphors, whereas quite a few Christians do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=3)